Also worth noting the english is there for a reason… I feel like you really only need to understand japanese word order and notice any particles around a word to figure something out even if you know none of the vocab if you only want to learn the grammar part. Maybe look at sentences as a different part of your study until you learn enough grammar and get the hang of the bunpro sentences?
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The topic title reminds me of a great quote from the late Jim Rohn.
“Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better. Don’t wish for less problems, wish for more skills. Don’t wish for less challenge, wish for more wisdom.”
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It definitely helps to have at had some exposure to at least the basics before starting Bunpro (as opposed to WaniKani which could be started as soon as you know Hiragana).
I personally went through the first 6 or so levels on Memrise (similar to Duolingo) which gave me a reasonable foundation moving forward. It made Bunpro, Cure Dolly, Anki decks, and other materials much more accessible because I wasn’t starting from zero.
You also generally won’t build up a huge backlog on Memrise/Duolingo like you will here and Anki. Well, you will, but they tend to hide it from view so they don’t discourage you from jumping back in after a break.
I really wish Anki, Bunpro etc had some kind of suspend deck feature, so you can pause it in it’s current state and pick up where you left off next time you log in.
Obviously you’re going to forget a lot of things, but they’ll naturally drop into the SRS queue higher up in the stack each time you forget them, and chances are, you’ll remember it after the first failure anyway. But that way you won’t be looking at a thousand + card backlog if you step away for a couple of weeks.
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kinda off topic but this thread got me thinking.
I think completing the SRS que is focused on too much. I have been going trough a lot of ways to learn with different apps and websites, and first working on a certain grammar for a bit or writing a word several times IRL for vocab seem to function a lot better for learning something rather than just dumping all the work on SRS. SRS instead really shine on solidifying knowledge you got the hang of earlier. its better to go trough 15-30 things you fail at on the que while practice using them that day instead of trying to go trough a massive que and not give any of the lessons any time.
don’t be scared of not meeting your new daily goals or finishing your reviews for the day, the most important aspect is to just learn effectively. not meeting artificial goals.
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The OP definitely needs a better vocabulary base indeed however I would disagree using a premade Anki deck for learning. SRS are made for reviewing not learning.
Pre-made decks especially are what I would personaly avoid at all cost no matter how good they are.
It can be good once you already have a fundation but otherwise trying to brute force words in your brain is just very inefficient and frustrating IMO. Building your own set on the go is SO much more fluid in comparison.
I wouldn’t rely on bunpro vocab desks for vocabulary learning for the same reason, I see bunpro strengths in grammar study and reviewing, but as far as vocabulary goes I do the learning elsewhere which is totally fine.
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the difficulty is what convinced me to use Bunpro.
It is hard, but that is exactly what an output tool should be. Japanese output is especially way harder than input so it is very easy to think that you are better than you objectively are.
Bunpro just constantly reminds you of this, it keeps you out of your comfort zone, I think it is so valuable
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I have noticed some grammar points where it’s not explained that words need to be conjugated according to another grammar point before applying the current grammar point, which then makes it confusing as to why the solutions to practice sentences are what they are and at least for me contributes to the perceived difficulty of Bunpro. Grammar is not my strong suit and I don’t intuitively understand things like this, so I would appreciate that explanations and connections to other grammar points would be stated in Bunpro’s grammar point material.
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With all due respect Stephanie, I could not disagree more.
While at this point in my studies I do take the “on the go” approach to vocabulary by making my own cards, using a core 2000 vocab deck gave me a solid foundation to build upon. If you’re a highly motivated student who likes to take control and customization of every aspect of your learning, then that method might work for you. But for students who need guidance, who are having a difficult time, who are still trying to find their way, (which tend to be most beginners in my experience) having a set of pre-selected core vocabulary will ensure you’re studying 曲げる and 携帯 first and not going straight into things like 発射 and 乗組員 which are going to be much less useful in the beginning.
The OP clearly finds Bunpro sentences too difficult at this time which they are in comparison to other programs. So instead of this “git good, Japanese is hard, deal with it” mentality, it’s good to offer people who are struggling options to build up a good foundation. This is why we have programs like Bunpro in the first place. This is just my two cents from hosting local study sessions for years, doing basic tutoring, and seeing more students quit than I would have liked from receiving bad and discouraging advice.
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Stephane without a i 
no worries, it is totally fine if we don’t agree. There is no objective way obviously otherwise everyone would go for it.
If that worked great for you that’s cool, I know I would have wasted time and the fun of looking out for stuff personally.
However you are making assumptions from my answer that I am saying “deal with it, it’s hard.”
I may have not well expressed myself and my next post saying I like the difficulty can obviously make you think that but really that isn’t my thinking at all.
The solution I am offering of avoiding prebuilt SRS to me sounds clearly easier. I don’t think I am discouraging at all but again I may have put it poorly.
My point was very much regarding how the brain assimilates stuff. learning and reviewing don’t operate the same way, SRS is a brilliant review tool, learning not so much as I expressed before, but you are free to disagree.
I think doing custom flashcards is actually much easier, despite starting from a blank page that may feel intimidating, the effort in comparison is minimal. You also stimulate your curiosity this way which is essential in language learning.
By doing custom cards you learn exactly what your brain asks for, so I don’t see the point you are making with the words choice, it is actually the opposite, no wasted learned word whatsoever.
I’d agree on certain essential vocabulary you can’t pass anyway so having a list is great, but I prefer to learn those out of lessons or whichever context anyway, they will stick much easier, THEN flashcard are efficient, not the other way around (just my opinion again).
I just don’t get the point of learning from flashcards, while they are great in this case to me it is the wrong tool for the job.
I have recently tried the 2k/6k optimized set out of curiosity (not sure this is the actual name but I guess you get what I am referring to), and I noticed quickly a set of politics terms for example (party, election, candidate etc…), if I would have studied with this at the beginning I would just be stuck on loops with these kind of words at a beginner level, as I absolutely have no need or immediate interest for them.
They are very useful but one person’s priority would be different to another, in that regard custom sets are a shortcut, they rely on curiosity so the memory retention rate is way higher.
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@stephane I would have to disagree. Doing the core 2k/6k gave me such a strong base to learn words and though it was difficult at first to learn the words, eventually I had 6k of the most common words down to start reading with (even the politics words were useful and the core decks are based from newpsaper frequencies)
though I do agree making your own decks are better, that definitely comes after getting somewhat of a base in my opinion
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but my point was :would it not have been easier to have learned them another way, then consolidated them in SRS eventually maybe?
I don’t question the decks themselves I am sure they are great just the fact of using them for initial learning. the politic words are great and not too specific, but an immediate priority I doubt it. my personal hobbies/interests would be to me.
Now could be that my brain gets overwhelmed and turned off with generic content and I NEED the self curiosity factor, to other people that may not be that much of a concern I can’t tell.
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It’s been a while since we have had such a spicy thread.
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Sorry if I made assumptions, but brashness and attitude can be difficult to determine in a text based space. I can see where you are totally coming from, but you’re clearly stating what works for you, and if it works for you then that’s great.
But what I was posting is based on my time working with students and seeing what works and doesn’t work overall. While I did find some frustration in core 2000 and 6000 decks with vocabulary I didn’t use much at the time, it was more beneficial then trying to play Persona 4 and looking up every word. I wasn’t even enjoying the game at that point. After going through the core decks, I am able to play and read through most things, and pick up on the words I don’t know. Doing it the other way around was too frustrating for me and in my experience has been more frustrating for learners overall.
I feel that this method would work for the OP more because they clearly need some guidance. I could be wrong, but it’s worked for me and many, many people. Yes, now I do make ridiculous, information filled flashcards that I would only recommend こだわり過ぎ people to make, but I had a foundation to build upon.
Ah well. 十人十色 I guess. Back to immersing.
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Yeah, I can’t imagine playing a video game, or reading a manga/novel, and trying to create flash cards out of every word. That wouldn’t be enjoyable at all.
At least at first, I think most people would benefit from getting core words under their belt, through SRS, BEFORE getting to the point of mining sentences and creating custom flash cards. I think this would make learning further vocabulary much easier, and even more so once you have a good Kanji foundation. As I mentioned earlier, Kanji knowledge is the key to unlocking vocabulary.
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At this point, I’m pretty sure OP is probably having second thoughts about learning Japanese at all.
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The time it takes me to do anything on bunpro is like 3-4 times longer than wanikani. I know about 237 kanji on WaniKani but Bunpro I just look at it and it feels very overwhelming. Nothing in bunpro is structured on top of each other like you would do when learning mathematics. If you’re goal is to learn Multivariable Calc, you don’t start out by learning Calc 1. You first need to know basic arithmetic and then build on other classes from there. Bunpro should be structured like this to follow standard teaching practices.
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Believe it or not languages are not maths (although maths is a part of language). You can’t establish a language from first principles. Natural languages can generate new things without reference to rules and although meaning implies some form of rule following the rules are defined by meaningful usage and not the other way around.
Bunpro also actually is structured in an extremely forgiving way that does follow standard teaching practices for Japanese and for language pedagogy. There aren’t too many ways it could be simplified further without being turned into something extremely boring and therefore not useful.
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not trying to be mean to Wanikani, but i have stopped using it. while I think its much better than duolingo or other apps to learn kanji/words i still dropped it for these reasons:
I don’t think learning words in a vacuum is very wise. learn all the on’yomi and kun’yomi you want, will you be able to use them correctly without working with them in proper sentences?
you have way better ways to set up a cram list on bunpro. sure you can always set up 3rd party practice flashcards etc, but the lack of effective first party training should be noted.
the order you learn things in is honestly not good for learning to speak fast. and from learning other languages im a big believer in learning to communicate fast. speaking/writing sentences is one of the most effective ways to learn. and even after 400 words you still have not learned many of the common words for first time writers/talkers like watashi.
i’m going to try out bunpro for grammar and vocab now, while using the book “Remembering the Kanji” as side project for practicing kanji/radicals.
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The main purpose of Wanikani is to learn Kanji, so the vocabulary that’s there is used to make it easier to remember the different readings of a Kanji. Each word has at least one sentence with English translations, so that you can see the word used in context.
Again, learning core vocabulary is not really the purpose words serve in Wanikani. Also, if communication is most important to you, Wanikani is obviously not gonna help much with that.
You know what’s not gonna help you read Japanese? Remembering the Kanji. Sure, you’ll know what each Kanji means, but you’ll be done with it and not be able to read a lick of Japanese. At least not with just book I, which is as far as most people seem to go with it.
Anyway, it’s fine if you didn’t jive with Wanikani and want to try something different, but I needed to clear things up.
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