Could we please get an option to turn " 名詞 (noun)", "助動詞 (auxiliary verb)" etc. in the descriptions off

Bunpro
#9

Do you know those words (or all their kanji) already? As someone who doesn’t, they are incredibly distracting.

And it would take me a fair bit of effort with very little use to learn them. I’d probably not retain them well either, because it’s much too early for me to use them - unlike the grammar and the vocab I learn, it’s unlikely they will come up in my daily reading or my listening.

I obviously don’t mind Japanese words on a Japanese learning website when there is a point in them being there. But if I would just sprinkle random Japanese words into this post, words with kanji you don’t know, and your brain would stop at each of them, trying to figure out whether you know it and what it could mean, only to then realize that there was absolutely no point (the explanation of the words is in brackets behind it, and you have no interest in learning the word) - you would not find that distracting?

Won’t the English descriptions in the brackets do the same? If not, they should probably be updated, because a lot of people might be going by them instead.

Maybe it’s really just me, but for me it’s “Okay, I’ve seen this word 100 times, I don’t have time/energy/motivation to learn it, and I really wish it wasn’t there.”

I wonder if it works for other people, or if it’s:

  • People who already know the words don’t mind that they are there.
  • People who don’t know the words try to completely ignore them as best as they can.
2 Likes
#10

As someone who has been studying Japanese in Japanese (a little, anyway), I totally see this. It’s easy for grammar to get ambiguous without knowing how to refer to the specific thing in the target language as well.

I think a blog post might be too much, but it would be helpful to mouse-over these terms and get a floating window with a quick (1–2 sentence) definition with some examples. It sounds like some common particles such as は or に have different names for different contexts in Japanese. It’s difficult to keep them straight just by reading the grammar explanations.

1 Like
#11

When it comes to Japanese terms in grammar descriptions, some find value in their presence, while others prefer a more streamlined approach. Why not introduce a toggle option that empowers learners to choose whether they want to see these terms or not? This way, everyone can customize their learning experience according to their preferences.

Additionally, providing accessible explanations or definitions for these terms, either through mouse-over tooltips or links to relevant resources, can cater to those who wish to explore their meanings without overwhelming others.

In particular a variation on this idea:

Seems like a high value add at some point.

5 Likes
#12

The style of showing both the target language definition and the native language definition is fairly standard in many text books. One of the main reasons for this is that they are not exactly the same thing in both languages, so giving the impression that they are can do more harm than good. An English particle is not the same as a Japanese 助詞, and a Japanese 助詞 is not the same as an English particle. They are however the closest examples that each language has for their conterpart. This same principle applies to most other grammatical jargon as well, especially in languages that are vastly different.

Japanese learners of English will almost always be shown both, as can be seen here, before being given a brief description with examples of how things work.

textbook
textbook1133×1178 143 KB

textbook2
textbook21051×691 102 KB

This is not to say that this is the right or best way at all, of course we naturally want to be able to please as many styles of learner as possible. However, learning the terms in the native language can almost only ever be beneficial for the learner.

I think what we will plan on doing in the near future is having some kind of toggle available to turn things either on or off, but it will always be our goal to try to give each student the information that they need in order to pursue their individual interests in deepening their understanding as well.

10 Likes
#13

as someone who’s only just now really starting to focus on grammar, (because of bunpro) i find the kanji super helpful and wish all the terms could be swapped to kanji (as a toggle, and hide the english as a toggle too)! the terms just make more sense in kanji and are easier to learn, i think (like what is transitivity anyways lol 自動詞／他動詞 oooohhh self move/other move).

6 Likes
#14

I think the furigana is the problem, just in terms of making the text look too clunky and busy to read.

Should there be an option to hide that, like I can hide the furigana for individual words in review mode?

1 Like
#15

I do already know these words and kanji, yes, although even when I didn’t I still wasn’t distracted when resources used both since I would just skip over it. However, clearly people do find it distracting even if I didn’t and don’t so I’m not gonna argue with someone else’s experience since that is totally valid.

@thomas1985 I don’t have furigana so you must be able to turn it off in the settings.

4 Likes
#16

Those are not the best parallel examples.
The sample texts you provided are:
Japanese Japanese Japanese Japanese (English) Japanese Japanese …

The explanations on Bunpro are written like this:
English English English Japanese (English) English English …

A good parallel example would need to be from a textbook for English speakers that is written like this:
English English English Spanish (English) English English …
English English English Swedish (English) English English …

Or, to be parallel to the Japanese text provided, the Bunpro explanation would be:
English English English English (Japanese) English English …

4 Likes
#17

Honestly reading this, I wonder if a small compromise wouldn’t simply be to write “English (Japanese)” instead of the other way around, mirroring these Japanese examples. That wouldn’t look quite as daunting for people not super familiar with kanji IMO.

Contrast:

において is a combination of the 格助詞 (case marking particle) に in, and the 接続語 (conjunction) おいて.

Versus:

において is a combination of the case marking particle (格助詞) に in, and the conjuction (接続語) おいて.

I’d wager that the 2nd example will flow better for 99% of early-to-intermediate Japanese learners than the first, despite carrying the exact same information.

I don’t feel very strongly about it though, and it would probably create a lot of churn to update all the explanations (although you could probably script a vast majority of the changes).

7 Likes
#18

Oh you just said a similar thing, I apologize for not reading through the thread before replying.

2 Likes
#19

You are exactly right. It was my understanding that the general pain point for some users was that both the Japanese and English appear together, rather than what order they appear in. If it is actually the order itself that is troublesome, then this is an easy fix.

We were chatting a bit internally today about some other solutions as well for people that don’t want to see them at all, and will probably make a poll on the forums quite soon to gather a bit of data about what people want.

4 Likes
#20

A toggle to switch them off would be nice.

— Dave

3 Likes
#21

Personally I like them and actually I’d rather r have the option to turn the English translation off. But I suppose options to deactivate one or both would probably make everybody happy.

3 Likes
#22

Adding my two cents to this, as someone who has been learning languages for awhile, and who also used to teach English to students with a wide range of English levels.

I wonder if a better solution is to perhaps split the sections into two sections – one that focuses more on the meaning and nuances of the grammar point, and then one that goes deeper into the grammatical/technical side of things. I’d imagine the grammatical/technical section could potentially be combined with the current “Details” section.

The reason I suggest this is that I assume especially for those who are primarily learning grammar through English, they are probably skimming over the Japanese grammatical terms because they’re not at a point where these terms have meaning for them. Also, if we’re being completely realistic, the vast majority of people in my experience probably don’t get much value from the English grammatical terms either, just because most native English speakers aren’t actually taught the proper grammatical terms of things. So by having things split into two sections, you’re able to cater to two different audiences: People who want to learn grasp the main points of a grammar point and learn how to use it, and people who want to go more into the nitty-gritty details of that grammar point.

This would obviously be way more work than a toggle, as it would require a much bigger re-write of each grammar point, but throwing the idea out there as how I would personally approach it.

2 Likes
#23

A toggle seems in line with Bunpro’s overall philosophy of customizability.

For those who haven’t already decided that they want to skip the Japanese terms though, just learn them. There are only so many. The Japanese term and English term are not exact equivalents and when the native Japanese you come across starts breaking the rules of the English term, you will have a Japanese term ready to associate that behaviour with.

2 Likes
#24

Since I feel like my response isn’t best suited for a poll format, I’ll put it here…

For example, here’s part of the text of the grammar item about と as a conditional…

In the same way as the 格助詞かくじょし (case-marking particle) と means ‘and’, sometimes it is translated as ‘if’. In these cases, it is considered to be far stronger than ば, なら, or たら (which express hypothetical outcomes). This is because one of the primary uses of とis highlighting 結果けっか ‘a result’. In these cases, と is actually a 接続助詞せつぞくじょし, and shows one of three things.

As I read this, I feel confused about what a 格助詞 is, insofar as I would think all particles would mark case to a degree (in the same way that Russian uses noun declensions and English uses word order (except when it doesn’t)). I also can’t tell whether 接続助詞 are a subset of 格助詞; it’s difficult to tell from the context. The use of 結果 here rather than the English “result” feels superfluous.

If it were me, I’d code in a floating window so that if I mouse-over 格助詞, I see something like this…

格助詞かくじょし
Case-marking particle
A particle, usually attached to a noun, that indicates the noun’s grammatical case.
Examples:
①田中さんが本を読みます。
②先生に相談します。
③格好へ行きます。

I’d do something like this for 接続助詞…

接続助詞せつぞくじょし
Conjunction particle
A particle that indicates that a predicate has a semantic connection to the main clause. It can attach to nouns, adjectives, or verbs.
Examples:
①朝起きて顔を洗います。
②テレビを見ながらごはんを食べました。
③学校で勉強をしたり運動をしたりします。

These are just translations of pages from TUFS, but I really like how they lay out their explanations: 格助詞; 接続助詞.

A lot of this is an issue of design principle. Bunpro’s explanations exist in a sort of limbo: they can’t mislead students, but they can’t go into enough detail to cover every exception, edge case, and nuance.

I don’t know how one would implement this in a practical way within Bunpro’s existing code structure, but from my own experience as a teacher, the ideal is to start with a shallow explanation, then introduce a more thorough explanation once the student hits the Seasoned or Expert level.

Maybe something like this?

Beginner explanation:
と： A conjunction particle (接続助詞) that means “if” or “when.”
[example sentences here]

Adept explanation:
In the same way as the 格助詞かくじょし case-marking particle) と means ‘and’, sometimes it is translated as ‘if’. In these cases, it is considered to be far stronger than ば, なら, or たら (which express hypothetical outcomes). This is because one of the primary uses of とis highlighting 結果けっか ‘a result’. In these cases, と is actually a 接続助詞せつぞくじょし, and shows one of three things.
仮定かていの順接じゅんせつ - A result that is assumed to be true, and obvious.
確定かくていの順接じゅんせつ - A result that is known to be true.
仮定かていの逆接ぎゃくせつ - The opposite of a result that is assumed to be true.
Due to this, the (B) part of a phrase using とas ‘if’, will always occur when (A) happens, as it is considered to be the result of (A).

Then for the Seasoned explanation, I’d use the one that’s currently on the Bunpro page. In short, I’d add more details in proportion to mastery.

5 Likes
#25

Just ignore them, my man. Personally, they aren’t very useful for me either, but I don’t mind their presence either.

#26

If he were able to do grammar research in Japanese, he wouldn’t be here.

#27

ChatGPTs responce to this whole thread:

After reading through the recent discussion on the inclusion of both English and Japanese grammar terms in Bunpro, I’ve gathered several suggestions from the community that could improve the learning experience for users. Here’s a summary of the key ideas:

  1. Toggle feature for English and Japanese terms: Many users have suggested the implementation of a toggle feature that allows hiding either the English or Japanese terms, depending on the individual’s preference. This would offer greater customization and cater to different learning styles.
  2. Changing the order of the terms: Some users have proposed altering the order in which the terms are presented, such as displaying the English term first, followed by the Japanese term. This approach might make the content more accessible for early-to-intermediate Japanese learners.
  3. In-depth explanations and tooltips: To provide more comprehensive information, it has been suggested that floating tooltips or windows could be added, which display detailed explanations when users hover over specific grammar terms. This would allow for easy access to deeper understanding while keeping the main content concise.
  4. Reorganizing grammar explanations based on learning levels: Another idea is to split the grammar explanations into sections that cater to different learning levels. By offering separate sections focusing on the meaning and nuances of a grammar point, and another diving deeper into the grammatical and technical aspects, users can choose the explanations that best suit their needs and expertise.

Incorporating these suggestions, such as implementing a toggle feature, changing the order of terms, providing in-depth explanations, and reorganizing grammar explanations to cater to different learning levels, could enhance the Bunpro platform and better accommodate users’ preferences and learning styles.

I asked it to take into account and quote specifically what other people have said, as well as try and uncover anything we are missing. This is what it provided me.

Dear fellow Bunpro users,

I’ve been following the discussion on the inclusion of English and Japanese grammar terms, and I wanted to highlight some key ideas that have emerged, along with a few assumptions that we might need to consider.

winningtofu has an excellent suggestion for implementing a toggle feature to hide either English or Japanese terms based on user preferences. This could cater to users with varying language proficiencies and learning styles.

nminer brings up the idea of reorganizing grammar explanations, which could help address the diverse needs of learners at different stages in their language journey.

However, I believe there might be some hidden assumptions within the community that we should consider uncovering to create a more effective overall design:

  1. Assuming all users have the same preferences: It’s essential to recognize that each learner has unique preferences and needs. Gathering more user feedback through polls or surveys could help us identify and cater to various learning styles.
  2. Expecting users to adapt to the platform: It’s crucial to ensure that the platform can be adapted to suit individual users, rather than expecting users to adjust to the platform. Customization options and flexible features can help achieve this.

By addressing these assumptions and incorporating the excellent suggestions from our fellow users, we can work together to enhance the Bunpro experience for everyone.

Looking forward to your thoughts and further suggestions!

Best regards, UserAI

#28

It’s direct response to @Asher

Hi Asher,

Thank you for your insight and for considering the concerns of the community. I’m glad to see that you’re open to addressing these pain points.

As discussed in this thread, users have suggested several ideas to improve the learning experience:

  1. Implementing a toggle feature to hide either English or Japanese terms.
  2. Changing the order of the terms to display the English term first, followed by the Japanese term.
  3. Providing more in-depth explanations and tooltips for grammar terms.
  4. Reorganizing the grammar explanations to cater to different learning levels.

It’s essential to uncover any hidden assumptions the community may be making, such as assuming that everyone’s learning style is the same or that some features may be universally helpful or unhelpful. By gathering data through a poll, as you mentioned, you can better understand the diverse preferences and needs of the user base.

I’d like to suggest a poll construction that could help gather valuable insights:

  1. What is your preferred method for displaying grammar terms on Bunpro? a. English term only b. Japanese term only c. Both English and Japanese terms (default order) d. Both English and Japanese terms (with a user-defined order) e. Other (please specify)
  2. Would you be interested in a toggle feature to hide/show specific terms (English or Japanese)? a. Yes b. No
  3. How important is having in-depth explanations and tooltips for grammar terms? a. Very important b. Somewhat important c. Neutral d. Somewhat unimportant e. Not important at all
  4. Would you prefer reorganized grammar explanations based on learning levels? a. Yes b. No c. Not sure

It’s great that you’re taking a proactive approach to collecting feedback and improving the platform. I’m sure many users will appreciate the effort put into making Bunpro more adaptable to their unique learning styles. Looking forward to seeing the results of the poll and how the platform evolves based on user feedback!

I know that we are all getting used to our new AI overlords, I am trying to put it to good use and make Bunpro as good as it can possibly be. But it is a truly strange thing. Im very open to feedback about this current usage.

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