Personally I like them and actually I’d rather r have the option to turn the English translation off. But I suppose options to deactivate one or both would probably make everybody happy.
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Adding my two cents to this, as someone who has been learning languages for awhile, and who also used to teach English to students with a wide range of English levels.
I wonder if a better solution is to perhaps split the sections into two sections – one that focuses more on the meaning and nuances of the grammar point, and then one that goes deeper into the grammatical/technical side of things. I’d imagine the grammatical/technical section could potentially be combined with the current “Details” section.
The reason I suggest this is that I assume especially for those who are primarily learning grammar through English, they are probably skimming over the Japanese grammatical terms because they’re not at a point where these terms have meaning for them. Also, if we’re being completely realistic, the vast majority of people in my experience probably don’t get much value from the English grammatical terms either, just because most native English speakers aren’t actually taught the proper grammatical terms of things. So by having things split into two sections, you’re able to cater to two different audiences: People who want to learn grasp the main points of a grammar point and learn how to use it, and people who want to go more into the nitty-gritty details of that grammar point.
This would obviously be way more work than a toggle, as it would require a much bigger re-write of each grammar point, but throwing the idea out there as how I would personally approach it.
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A toggle seems in line with Bunpro’s overall philosophy of customizability.
For those who haven’t already decided that they want to skip the Japanese terms though, just learn them. There are only so many. The Japanese term and English term are not exact equivalents and when the native Japanese you come across starts breaking the rules of the English term, you will have a Japanese term ready to associate that behaviour with.
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Since I feel like my response isn’t best suited for a poll format, I’ll put it here…
For example, here’s part of the text of the grammar item about と as a conditional…
In the same way as the 格助詞 (case-marking particle) と means ‘and’, sometimes it is translated as ‘if’. In these cases, it is considered to be far stronger than ば, なら, or たら (which express hypothetical outcomes). This is because one of the primary uses of とis highlighting 結果 ‘a result’. In these cases, と is actually a 接続助詞, and shows one of three things.
As I read this, I feel confused about what a 格助詞 is, insofar as I would think all particles would mark case to a degree (in the same way that Russian uses noun declensions and English uses word order (except when it doesn’t)). I also can’t tell whether 接続助詞 are a subset of 格助詞; it’s difficult to tell from the context. The use of 結果 here rather than the English “result” feels superfluous.
If it were me, I’d code in a floating window so that if I mouse-over 格助詞, I see something like this…
格助詞
Case-marking particle
A particle, usually attached to a noun, that indicates the noun’s grammatical case.
Examples:
①田中さんが本を読みます。
②先生に相談します。
③格好へ行きます。
I’d do something like this for 接続助詞…
接続助詞
Conjunction particle
A particle that indicates that a predicate has a semantic connection to the main clause. It can attach to nouns, adjectives, or verbs.
Examples:
①朝起きて顔を洗います。
②テレビを見ながらごはんを食べました。
③学校で勉強をしたり運動をしたりします。
These are just translations of pages from TUFS, but I really like how they lay out their explanations: 格助詞; 接続助詞.
A lot of this is an issue of design principle. Bunpro’s explanations exist in a sort of limbo: they can’t mislead students, but they can’t go into enough detail to cover every exception, edge case, and nuance.
I don’t know how one would implement this in a practical way within Bunpro’s existing code structure, but from my own experience as a teacher, the ideal is to start with a shallow explanation, then introduce a more thorough explanation once the student hits the Seasoned or Expert level.
Maybe something like this?
Beginner explanation:
と： A conjunction particle (接続助詞) that means “if” or “when.”
[example sentences here]
Adept explanation:
In the same way as the 格助詞 case-marking particle) と means ‘and’, sometimes it is translated as ‘if’. In these cases, it is considered to be far stronger than ば, なら, or たら (which express hypothetical outcomes). This is because one of the primary uses of とis highlighting 結果 ‘a result’. In these cases, と is actually a 接続助詞, and shows one of three things.
仮定の順接 - A result that is assumed to be true, and obvious.
確定の順接 - A result that is known to be true.
仮定の逆接 - The opposite of a result that is assumed to be true.
Due to this, the (B) part of a phrase using とas ‘if’, will always occur when (A) happens, as it is considered to be the result of (A).
Then for the Seasoned explanation, I’d use the one that’s currently on the Bunpro page. In short, I’d add more details in proportion to mastery.
5 Likes
Just ignore them, my man. Personally, they aren’t very useful for me either, but I don’t mind their presence either.
If he were able to do grammar research in Japanese, he wouldn’t be here.
ChatGPTs responce to this whole thread:
After reading through the recent discussion on the inclusion of both English and Japanese grammar terms in Bunpro, I’ve gathered several suggestions from the community that could improve the learning experience for users. Here’s a summary of the key ideas:
- Toggle feature for English and Japanese terms: Many users have suggested the implementation of a toggle feature that allows hiding either the English or Japanese terms, depending on the individual’s preference. This would offer greater customization and cater to different learning styles.
- Changing the order of the terms: Some users have proposed altering the order in which the terms are presented, such as displaying the English term first, followed by the Japanese term. This approach might make the content more accessible for early-to-intermediate Japanese learners.
- In-depth explanations and tooltips: To provide more comprehensive information, it has been suggested that floating tooltips or windows could be added, which display detailed explanations when users hover over specific grammar terms. This would allow for easy access to deeper understanding while keeping the main content concise.
- Reorganizing grammar explanations based on learning levels: Another idea is to split the grammar explanations into sections that cater to different learning levels. By offering separate sections focusing on the meaning and nuances of a grammar point, and another diving deeper into the grammatical and technical aspects, users can choose the explanations that best suit their needs and expertise.
Incorporating these suggestions, such as implementing a toggle feature, changing the order of terms, providing in-depth explanations, and reorganizing grammar explanations to cater to different learning levels, could enhance the Bunpro platform and better accommodate users’ preferences and learning styles.
I asked it to take into account and quote specifically what other people have said, as well as try and uncover anything we are missing. This is what it provided me.
Dear fellow Bunpro users,
I’ve been following the discussion on the inclusion of English and Japanese grammar terms, and I wanted to highlight some key ideas that have emerged, along with a few assumptions that we might need to consider.
winningtofu has an excellent suggestion for implementing a toggle feature to hide either English or Japanese terms based on user preferences. This could cater to users with varying language proficiencies and learning styles.
nminer brings up the idea of reorganizing grammar explanations, which could help address the diverse needs of learners at different stages in their language journey.
However, I believe there might be some hidden assumptions within the community that we should consider uncovering to create a more effective overall design:
- Assuming all users have the same preferences: It’s essential to recognize that each learner has unique preferences and needs. Gathering more user feedback through polls or surveys could help us identify and cater to various learning styles.
- Expecting users to adapt to the platform: It’s crucial to ensure that the platform can be adapted to suit individual users, rather than expecting users to adjust to the platform. Customization options and flexible features can help achieve this.
By addressing these assumptions and incorporating the excellent suggestions from our fellow users, we can work together to enhance the Bunpro experience for everyone.
Looking forward to your thoughts and further suggestions!
Best regards, UserAI
It’s direct response to @Asher
Hi Asher,
Thank you for your insight and for considering the concerns of the community. I’m glad to see that you’re open to addressing these pain points.
As discussed in this thread, users have suggested several ideas to improve the learning experience:
- Implementing a toggle feature to hide either English or Japanese terms.
- Changing the order of the terms to display the English term first, followed by the Japanese term.
- Providing more in-depth explanations and tooltips for grammar terms.
- Reorganizing the grammar explanations to cater to different learning levels.
It’s essential to uncover any hidden assumptions the community may be making, such as assuming that everyone’s learning style is the same or that some features may be universally helpful or unhelpful. By gathering data through a poll, as you mentioned, you can better understand the diverse preferences and needs of the user base.
I’d like to suggest a poll construction that could help gather valuable insights:
- What is your preferred method for displaying grammar terms on Bunpro? a. English term only b. Japanese term only c. Both English and Japanese terms (default order) d. Both English and Japanese terms (with a user-defined order) e. Other (please specify)
- Would you be interested in a toggle feature to hide/show specific terms (English or Japanese)? a. Yes b. No
- How important is having in-depth explanations and tooltips for grammar terms? a. Very important b. Somewhat important c. Neutral d. Somewhat unimportant e. Not important at all
- Would you prefer reorganized grammar explanations based on learning levels? a. Yes b. No c. Not sure
It’s great that you’re taking a proactive approach to collecting feedback and improving the platform. I’m sure many users will appreciate the effort put into making Bunpro more adaptable to their unique learning styles. Looking forward to seeing the results of the poll and how the platform evolves based on user feedback!
I know that we are all getting used to our new AI overlords, I am trying to put it to good use and make Bunpro as good as it can possibly be. But it is a truly strange thing. Im very open to feedback about this current usage.
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