End of bunpro

There is no single answer to this question and the answers depend on who you ask and for what purpose “word” is being defined. For example, in Japanese there are often transitive and intransitive pairs of verbs whereas it is normal in English that the same verb is used both transitively and intransitively. Those Japanese verb pairs are more likely to be considered as two separate words as the sounds are different (and the transformation isn’t regular so can’t be considered a simple inflection, although actually in many cases these pairs can be matched by historical inflections/auxiliaries being appended). In English the way the word sounds is identical so people are more likely to consider it to be the same “word”. How about irregularly conjugating English verbs (is, be, are)? Or how about linguistic features which are expressed by word order in English but by dependent auxiliaries in Japanese? How about when a word has multiple non-obviously connected meanings (run a business, run away, a computer runs)? Or when a noun is compounded in Japanese but has spaces in English? Or English phrasal verbs which only express the specific meaning when considered as a unit and not as parts (blow up, blow out)?

Essentially even within linguistics the way you count words will depend on what you’re counting them for. If you’re counting to measure native speaker vocab sizes then saying that “run” is the same in all usages and with any conjugation makes some sense as a native will surely be familiar with all conjugations and probably know all common usages. For a complete beginner learner it may make more sense to count “run” and “running” as separate units. For an advanced learner this makes less sense but it may be useful for some reason (comparative research etc).

As for folk definitions, most native English speakers would say anything with a space on either side of it is a word and then perhaps quibble about whether things like “isn’t” is a single word. It’s not too important as the definition has no application in those cases.

For Japanese people, they learn to divide sentences into units at school with the smallest units being 単語. Normally sentences are more naturally divided by 文節 than 単語 though. (私は リンゴを 食べる is a more natural divide than 私 は リンゴ を 食べる - you’ve probably noticed these pauses in spoken Japanese as well). Outside of school, compound words will be considered to be single words by most Japanese people, as will compounded verbs like 生み出す etc. As you can already see the Japanese words for words (単語、言葉、語彙) already have slightly more specific usages than the English word “word” so it’s a bit easier to divide things up in folk usage (still hard in linguistics though).

Another consideration is that pitch accent shows word boundaries in Japanese. For example, most loanwords from English that would be made up of multiple English “words” actually become compounded into a single Japanese “word” that will have a single accented point instead of multiple (it’d have multiple if it were separate words). For example チョコレートケーキ would normally have a single accent on ケ instead of the expected double accent (on on レ and one on ケ) which it would have it were two words. Adding the suffix 的 will always make the word flat (I think 協力 is already flat though) so the pronunciation/accent changes as though the compound is one word rather than two that are stuck together. I’m not an expert on pitch accent by any means and still have a relatively strong foreign accent when speaking so take this with a grain of salt and do your own research.

As a last note, here you can find a brief discussion of the methodology behind the way words are counted for the balanced corpus of contemporary written Japanese which is a great resource. They count words in two different ways for the sake of their research. As you’d expect, having more granular ways of counting using meaning/usage as a benchmark would take a lifetime of manual work so broadly automated and rough morphological analysis is far easier: 形態論情報 現代日本語書き言葉均衡コーパス(BCCWJ)

For the short units used by the BCCWJ these would be two different “words”. For the long units they’d be one “word”. The figures for a native speaker knowing 40-50k words would correspond closer to the short unit words.

Hope that helps a little even though it isn’t definitive by any means. For learners the main take away is to kind of forget about vocab counts past the beginner stage as they start to lose all meaning.

3 Likes

Not only that but you also need to define “know”. What does it mean to know a word? Do you need to be able to understand it in context? Define it without context? Be able to use it correctly?

That’s why I personally ignore all that standardized test stuff unless I really need it, and I have never really needed it so far. I know that some people like being able to gauge their progress that way (“I’m N7, I know 122 grammar points, 3713.2 kanji and 6992±4 words”) and there’s nothing wrong with that, but I think it must always be taken with a large grain of salt because you can’t really measure one’s true aptitude with such simplistic metrics.

It’s funny because you don’t really need the JLPT unless you’re wanting to attent a university or something as a foreign exchange student. In the world field, for Instance, most companies have never even heard of the JLPT they just want to know if you speak Japanese and they’ll figure that out based on your interview.

3 Likes

Yeah absolutely, I think that’s true for most languages and cultures. I’m not a native English speaker but I’ve worked for several companies that required that I speak English, nobody asked for any sort of certificate. They just have you speak English during the interview and see how you fare.

When you think about it, as a recruiter, it’s actually a much better way to gauge practical ability than a test that only loosely correlates with real-world language use.

I think for universities and some public institutions they use standardized test scores because they need to have somewhat objective criteria for rejecting applicants.

2 Likes

I ignored JLPT for years as I don’t need it and find it completely disconnected with actual ability.

Now I decided to study for it this year, just because I realised especially when living in Japan a few years that I could get a very good fluency with actual poor vocabulary, and getting too much into a zone of comfort and stagnate like many long term residents do.

6 months down the road I am glad I went for a JLPT focused study, it is just for a moment, a couple years at most, it helps as you say a quantify your progress.

I still find the test absurd but my knowledge is increasing way faster than it has been for a while learning passively only by immersion.
I have changed my mind from JLPT should rather be avoided it you don’t have to pass it for whatever requirement, to at one point it will actually help as imperfect as it is. It just represents a few steps on the path, the mistake would be to give it too much importance.
The main part is to put all the acquired knowledge into practice anyway, not achieving any level obviously but I think it is a great tool.

4 Likes

I think that’s the real value of these tests for most people in communities like this one, it’s a way to set a goalpost and get motivated to study. There’s absolutely value in this.

1 Like

The content on the JLPT isn’t useless, just the certificate itself is. Most of the content on the JLPT is just common vocab and grammar structures.

I’d say the opposite is true. For a foriegner working in Japan, that N1 certificate is as effective as being a native speaker in terms of job opportunity (whether you pass the interview or not- that is another story). N2 is required for most things such as universities (undergrad, assuming you’re taking assisted courses) and most intern level work, whereas N3 is the basics for being a hotel worker or seven eleven employee. Whereas the test itself has a lot of superfluous language you probably wouldn’t see very often (at least past N3.)

As someone living and working in Japan I have to disagree. As I said earlier most companies have never even heard of the JLPT. I have never even been asked if I’ve taken it.

There are a handful of companies which do ask about it but those are always the places specifically looking for foreigners and list all of their info in English and then when you do get the job most of it will be in English anyway.

If you just apply for a normal job than the question will literally never come up.

As I mentioned earlier, this is essentially the only case where the JLPT may be necessary.

I’ll concede that I know nothing about the recruitment process for bell-boys and conbini staff but that’s a bit of a niche.

I don’t see how it would be required for interns but not regular staff, but that’s outside of my realm.

Yes and no, it all comes down to you and what you’re doing in the language. Under certain circumstances you may find that you see some of those points fairly often, or you may never see them.

I too live and work in Japan, and often see a clause at the bottom of the applications relating to foriegners that if they are a foriegner, they need certain qualifications relating to japanese. Including those that aren’t aimed specifically at foriegners. though I work in the education sector, so maybe it’s more expected to have foriegners apply even on japanese only websites.

JLPT does have practical value for certain visa/residency issues (it goes towards the points in the point system for certain types of residency). It is also asked for for some customer service roles (konbini etc) depending on the employer. I believe N2 is the minimum for the konbini, by the way, although not certain about that. Konbinis and hotels are full of foreign workers (comparatively) so it is a very relevant issue in regards to the practical value of the JLPT. It also has some value for certain university/education related applications. I know some universities ask for N2 but that’s way too low in my opinion. Some universities/courses also use other tests.

Honestly the practical value of it is very case by case. Some companies don’t know of it and some do. The JLPT has some flaws as a language proficiency test however sometimes the lack of value is overstated, in my opinion. The Japanese on it is very common so I do think sometimes people make excuses about not being able to pass by saying it is more esoteric than it really is.

Reasons why people take the test according to the compulsory survey when applying (this is people outside Japan and I believe all all levels so it will be a bit skewed away from residence/work based reasons compared to N2/N1 in Japan):

17283553935024413970464843329050

1 Like

I think that’s a big one

I guess Japanese has the biggest community of test-takers for sake of measuring owns knowledge out of all other languages, and it’s not even close

And just to be clear it is obviously still difficult to learn Japanese and time consuming reach N1 even if it is still common Japanese. It’s a big achievement regardless.

Here are some statistics regarding TOPIK (the Korean test). Quote: The purpose of taking the 29th TOPIK among 18,702 test takers was to study in Korea (8,400 applicants or 44.9%), to test their Korean language skills (4,669 applicants or 25%), to find a job in Korea (2,534 applicants or 13.5 %) and for other reasons (3,099 applicants or 16.6 %).

People taking the JLPT in Japan probably are far more overwhelmingly taking it for practical purposes, I’d imagine.

That’s a good point. It’s not really a good measure for language overall ability due to lack of output, but it is still important for a lot of reasons despite this. I’ve yet to take the N1, or even the N2, however I have heard and seen in practice tests they do have some strange vocabulary that isn’t really used in normal contexts.

Of course the whole goal of the higher levels is on an “academic” level and not a casual conversational level. yeah there are tons of words that are used in everyday Japanese on there, but there are also tons of non jlpt words that are used in everyday Japanese as well.
I would also agree that a lot of people say the test is more abstract than it really is, though I have a feeling it’s probably really similar to those high school english/SAT tests that have a paragraph and ask you “what is the best summary of the above paragraph” where it kind of mixes in opinion plus guessing a lot of the time.

Again I’ve not taken the N1 or N2 but that’s what I’m expecting for those levels.

Last seen a few days after this message, never passed level 1.

For anyone starting right now or less than a few weeks, just keep in mind this : Learning a language is not about a rushing it so you’re “sooner back to not having to learn”.

If you have to do walk 100km, would you try to rush/sprint to get there as soon as possible, thinking that all you need is the right mentality? Nop.

I’ve started ~9 months ago, and even things I thought I knew after a few days, are still getting engrained deeper and deeper in my subconscious. Things that felt easy sometimes get harder, and sometimes things we think are already at their “max easiness” are getting even more natural with time.

So the question is not really about how fast you can go, but how steady you can go. Of course, the more you do, the faster it can be, but it’s not about “2 months rush”, our brain have their own paces, mechanisms of learning, so it’s not a proportional relationship. Maybe 1h/day will get you to “N1 level” (for whatever it means) in 900 days, and 2h might get you there in ~500 … But 4h won’t necessarily get you there in 250.

And how to know what’s the best for you ? Well, your own trial and error. Yet, even if nobody can give you an exact answer, a lot of experienced learner here can at least give you some rule of thumb so you don’t believe “100 new words per day is sustainable”.

So don’t try to plan your road to full mastery when you haven’t even done the first step. Do the walk, guys.

6 Likes

Nah, boooriiing

Well, Japanese is the 4th language I’ve studied, and @soundjona insight is really sound to me

Because it’s known truth I guess

It is probably known truth, indeed.

Yet, just like knowing a Japanese word does not mean having it appropriated, knowing a basic truth doesn’t mean having it appropriated. So I think repeating them can have value to make that knowledge become some kind of wisdom

I completely agree, it is boring. But fancy things are built on boring foundations. Of course, I can understand that for some, being a learner is already fancy enough, but if the goal is to use Japanese to do fancy things (communicating with Japanese native, enjoying Japanese native media, discovering things not exported in your known languages), there is no shortcut around the boring.

At the same time, maybe those insights are pointless, and the best experience we build is the one we build for ourselves, but from my own experience, it definitely helped me to reach the same conclusion but a bit sooner that I would have done all by myself :slight_smile:

2 Likes