FSRS

[btluppi]

How do you guys feel about the ghosts system in Bunpro? I currently have ghosts on for vocab, and left the SRS strictness at the default 1. But I am struggling with some vocab in a level that I dont see them often and get them right about 50% of the time. So the vocab keeps going up and down in SRS but never progresses. I’m not sure if the ghosts are helping me much in those cases, so I am considering removing them and making the SRS more strict for vocab.

The ghosts have been very helpful initially with new vocab that I am not familiar with

[Mango1]

I went ahead and set it so that my SRS level decreases by half if I get it wrong, and adds a ghost. It’s a bit annoying when I get something wrong because of a simple typo, but it does strike a good balance overall. It has definitely increased my retention while still being less punishing than a complete reset. Maybe you could try that?

Edit: I’d like to add that I also changed my review schedule to have shorter intervals. It increases reviews per day but that seems to help also. Might be worth giving that a shot too

[amberglade]

I wish there were a system to better handle medium term memory, where you are familiar with a word/grammar point but confuse it with other things that have a similar meaning or sound the same.

After a while, ghosts turn into “what’s the last thing I got wrong that means x?” When I first run into something I haven’t seen in a while, a lot of times, I can remember 4-5 things that mean the same thing that would fit but not the correct answer.

I also wish there was a an automatic way to review similar items/nuance differences.

[thelizard]

@Mango1

when I get something wrong because of a simple typo

What type of typo? Do you fail cards if you knew how to write it but hit a wrong key by accident? I usually just ESC and re-do in these cases. Or when multiple words are possible but they aren’t marked as alternatives, I still don’t fail the card. I only fail it if I actually make a mistake

[Mango1]

I’m doing Bunpro on a phone, so sometimes what happens is I’ll be going through he vocab reviews and end up in a situation where I make a typo and then my muscle memory causes me to hit the enter button and move to the next one before I have time to react to my error. I hope that makes sense lol.

[kvnqs]

Thanks a lot for the info! Afaik for FSRS, even if it resets to the initial state, at least on my system, the next intervals after answering the card correctly are still much higher than for newly cards (could be wrong on this one).

I think I will try resetting the cards to the initial state for a trial run. Right now I am mostly reviewing grammar and I think the default settings of just reducing the level by 1 is not enough for some grammar which intervals are too long. This might lead to some massive increase in reviews - maybe then it’s beneficial to increase the intervals between levels, though that’s not great for new cards.

So +1 on the need to include FSRS in bunpro, imho it’s really needed.

[thelizard]

@kvnqs

So +1 on the need to include FSRS in bunpro, imho it’s really needed.

Absolutely, I’m not arguing against FSRS, I was explaining what my best guess is in regard of a large part of retention discrepancy between Anki and Bunpro

[kvnqs]

Sorry, I should’ve been clearer that this +1 was towards the general thread and not your regarding your post, which I think was really informative.

[soundjona]

@thelizard

So on Anki (even with FSRS under most circumstances), forgetting a card will lead to a full reset, since it’s being relearned. This will obviously lead to a higher workload.

Well FSRS is not really working with full reset. It has multiplies associated with a “Fail” that is trainable by the user review. Params 11 to 14 here : Anki FSRS Visualizer

The thing with FSRS is that it work really well to learn from your past history. Maybe you’re the kind of guy that need a full reset, or a simple 20% loss of interval will be enough, FSRS can adapt to that.

Still, depending on the FSRS version you can have different behaviour. FSRS-6, which is on beta on Anki beta version right now, work with trainable decay, the exponent of the forgetting curve. This can lead to some Desired Retention (70%) to be lead to very high intervals like multiple years, when the decay is low enough (it’s capped to min 0.1 though). FSRS-5 introduced same-day reviews consideration, not that great to predict same-day prediction but quite great to be able to weight differently if one card was failed 3 times in a row the same day instead of just 1.

Switching to FSRS would mean Bunpro would have to either use default params, which are not bad by themselves, or to map the SRS Strictness to map to different Desired Retention (80, 85, 90, 95% could be good values)

Another question is parameters optimization. It is normally done by user but in Anki it requires manual optimization. Automatic Optimization can be implemented but I’d argue having some minimum review number before being able to optimize is probably better to avoid funky situation. Typically, especially in systems were you go from N5 to N1 with what I’ll assume to be harder and harder content, you might get a model that will be trained on N5 content you might already master, and FSRS will become overly optimistic about your parameters, leading you then to have very long intervals for N3-N1 content until you fail them ~6 months later and then suddenly the optimization will change the parameters.

But it doesn’t stop there, another concept of living with FSRS is rescheduling. If you don’t reschedule, the cards planned in 1 year will stay there. So if your params are now less optimistic, you’ll have to reschedule cards. But this action is known to lead to immense backlogs since you have maybe 300 reviews to do as a backlog that were initially planned in 6m-12months.

So all in all, I think FSRS is indeed a good way forward BUT it’s also paved with got’chas and not everyone has been very happy with it, often because FSRS doesn’t care about “increasing retention” the longer you’ve been knowing a word, it just care about keeping your Desired Retention the same, which is why I don’t advice DR lower than 90% such as 80% except if you agree having 1y interval card with a target retention of 80%.

I’ve been using and discussing FSRS for the past 15 months now so feel free to ask.

I’ve listed all the major complaints with FSRS :

• https://www.reddit.com/r/Anki/comments/1bwxd22/even_with_retention_rate_set_to_70_fsrs_is/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/Anki/comments/1c16u4y/fsrs_mature_card_retention_rate_dropping_pt2/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/Anki/comments/1an2pha/fsrs_my_retention_for_mature_cards_went_down_by_10/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/Anki/comments/18zvrhq/im_not_sure_fsrs_is_actaully_better_than_sm2_but/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/Anki/comments/1h2k4m2/comment/lzlfevb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
• https://www.reddit.com/r/Anki/comments/1h2k4m2/comment/m0ce32k/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/Anki/comments/1an0ck6/how_long_before_i_see_results_from_fsrs/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/Anki/comments/1hqaukz/since_turning_on_fsrs_my_retention_has_been_lower/

Goal here is not to dissuade from it, but more to understand what is the hidden cost that unfortunately many people will try to obfuscate. And also to help Bunpro’s team to be ready for the potential support required to User, since FSRS will be more difficult to interpret for people less versed in how it is built

[casual]

It’s not obvious how to compare SRS algorithms to begin with.

The vast majority of learners does additional reviews outside of Anki, a.k.a immersion + other tools. That data is not available in the sets used to compare different models and parameters, and so it’s already a “garbage in, garbage out” situation.

The correlation between cards should have a massive impact on results too, and I don’t readily see if the data set was controlled for that. It’s one thing to test on “absolute beginner’s core 3k different words”, and another on Bunpro’s “each word has 10 different sentences”.

And of course one elephant in the room is that user age is probably a much stronger predictor of retention than used study method. I don’t see if the algorithm tests were ever split by age cohorts at all.

So FSRS versionX is “scientifically proven” to be the absolute best for whom, on what kind of card set? For everybody and everything? Heh.

This is not to say that I’m defending WK’s fixed 2x intervals. I just think there are other low hanging fruit related to the scheduler still not fixed/improved. Like not showing duplicate sentences from different sources (ghost/no ghost) on the same day.

[thelizard]

@casual

So FSRS versionX is “scientifically proven” to be the absolute best for whom, on what kind of card set? For everybody and everything? Heh.

in order to account for all those differences, statistics are made on the entire userbase which is diverse in terms of learning material (not even just languages), age, card style, exposure outside of SRS etc. I’ve occasionally peeked at the dev discussions (both on discord and github) and the main metric that is typically used to argue for or against an implementation is “[change] is better for [x]% of users”. With “better” mostly meaning “higher retention”.

That said, I try not to overthink this. I’d rather use a mildly less optimized system that keeps me motivated rather than a highly optimized one that burns me out. We can spend weeks digging into the details and the specifics, or we can just spend the same time learning Japanese. Use whatever you enjoy using, regardless of whether something is objectively a little “better” or not.

Thinking back on how I learned English in school as a kid. No SRS, no Anki, no sentencepro, probably the worst textbook in existence and not a whole lot of motivation. Yet somehow I now manage to use the language. Albeit not in a perfect way.

[simias]

@thelizard

That said, I try not to overthink this. I’d rather use a mildly less optimized system that keeps me motivated rather than a highly optimized one that burns me out. We can spend weeks digging into the details and the specifics, or we can just spend the same time learning Japanese. Use whatever you enjoy using, regardless of whether something is objectively a little “better” or not.

That’s how I feel as well. I think some people overthink SRS generally, personally I just see it as a review load management algorithm and nothing more. I’ve been using SRS systems for close to a decade now to learn various languages, in my experience the difference between a “dumb” fixed-interval algo like what bunpro and many other websites use and Anki’s FSRS is fairly small at the end of the day when it comes to my ability to learn the languages.

I do however think that the current scheduling algorithm used by bunpro is not very suitable for pre-made vocab decks because I want words that I’m already familiar with to be very quickly kicked to long intervals, something that currently requires manually changing the SRS tier in bunpro and would be handled effectively automatically with something like FSRS.

[UrusaiGaijin]

TBH I don’t think the algorithm is the real issue. For me, the problem with Bunpro is that every review has only two possible outcomes: pass or fail. There’s no rating for how well you were able to recall something.

If I’m able to recall a word but it takes me 10 seconds, then clearly I need to see that word again sooner than if I’m able to recall it instantly. But Bunpro treats both scenarios equally.

Often when faced with that situation, I’ll actually intentionally “fail” the review item just because I want to force Bunpro to show it to me again soon. If it had a recall rating system like Anki, and adjusted the next review based on that, I think it would work much better—regardless of whether it’s FSRS or whatever.

[thelizard]

@UrusaiGaijin

If I’m able to recall a word but it takes me 10 seconds, then clearly I need to see that word again sooner than if I’m able to recall it instantly. But Bunpro treats both scenarios equally.

I principally understand what you mean but I do wonder what your desired outcome would be mechanically in this situation? As Bunpro already only fails by one step rather than going back to SRS1, if you just want to see it a little more often, you could just fail it. Going -1 does not really leave room for a “half fail”…

Or you can just go and create a ghost, or set the term to a different SRS level manually, even.

[casual]

Well, what’s the difference between “hard” “good” and “easy” in Anki etc?
Typically “hard” gives you approximately the same interval (something like 1.15x), which would correspond to leaving it at the same Bunpro level.
“good” increases the interval 2x-3x, so that’s approximately Bunpro +1 level.
“easy” increases the interval 4x-8x, which I think would be a really important option to cut down on review volume for anyone returning to study, or migrating to a new tool, or resetting.

But then again, all conversation about SRS is predicated on intervals for the same card, whereas in Bunpro only ghosts and custom sentences are “the same card”. It’s an open question which intervals would be best for introducing different sentences related to the same grammar/vocab.

[Curnan2]

I gave up ghosts a long time ago. Just let the natural falling down of the SRS level (and accordingly the natural shortening of the review interval) eventually find the sweet spot you need to successfully relearn the card.

This will depend heavily on how many reviews you are doing of course, but for myself I have thousands of vocab cards in Bunpro. Ghosts would absolutely eat up any time that I should be spending on new material. I trust the learning to come with time, I don’t want 95+% flashcard accuracy, I want to learn a language. Can’t do that if you’re not studying new stuff.

[Mathias_Tichota]

I recommend tweaking the reset to SRS1, too. I remember grammar better ever since I did that.

[LunaCora]

+1 for this
I love Bunpro in general, but the SRS is really bad, especially compared to Anki, JPDB, etc.

[Urazi]

Then join this thread

FSRS for Bunpro Please

Hello everyone. I’m aware this has been raised before but I would like to add my voice to the chorus of people asking for Bunpro to incorporate FSRS. I believe I saw one of the Devs say it was planned many months ago but im curious if there have been any updates on this front. Bunpro has been a great resource for me but I think implementing FSRS would make it a lot better. Thanks

It’s actually getting worked on and plan to release this year, they just need a bit more time to polish it as they have multiple sentences for the same grammar point/ vocab.

[LunaCora]

I’m already on that thread as well​:+1: