Getting past the N5 hurdle?

[Moffitt]

@davesies

One other note on this. Nothing wrong with what you’re doing at all btw, but one other thing that I’ve found has massively helped me is to prefer adding vocab words to my bunpro SRS based on what I encounter in interacting with native material rather than going in the order of e.g. the Bunpro N5 vocab deck or Genki I deck.

For example every time I meet with my italki sensei (which I cannot recommend enough as a way to practice output and listening, assuming you can afford it) I come away with probably at least 10 new words that I learned that came up in conversation.

This is great advice, and something I’ve been tentatively been doing the past week or so as I’ve been doing listening practice and new words are popping up. I completely agree that certain words in the N5 deck aren’t particularly useful early on (I’m also well past my schooling years!), though I think I may continue to work through the N5 deck for now as it’s helping me form the habit of studying daily. Once I’m feeling more comfortable with that I’ll definitely try to add words that I hear during listening practice as it’ll probably help speed that process up too.

I’d love to do something like Italki or some sort of pen pal exchange in future as well, once my confidence grows a bit more. Thanks so much!

@rustx

I did only Anime + Wanikani to begin with, then after a while I added Anki. And maybe after 1.5 yrs I added Bunpro, haven’t changed it outside of that. Haven’t sat down with any traditional textbook ETC like Genki or the other popular ones.

If you’re familiar enough with your favorite anime, its likely you’ll understand a fair amount of what is said without actually comprehending the words. The biggest help is it removes the “I’m not good enough for this” yet hurdle as you start straight away

Yeah I think I sat down with a textbook for all of 20 minutes way back at the beginning before I decided it wasn’t for me either ahaha. Thank you for the clarification re: anime as well! I’ve watched a fair bit of anime over the past few years though never without English translations as I wasn’t watching with the intention of it being listening practice. I may attempt to re-watch a favourite series or two with Japanese subtitles when I’m feeling a bit burned out from NIJ.

@cward25

I just finished not too long ago the vocab from n5, and am onto n4, and still finishing up the last of the grammar from n5. I found by using wanikani to learn kanji has been a pretty decent help when paired with bunpro. Right around the 800 word mark from n5 I too felt like I wasn’t learning it [so I slowed down with the learning words every day], and after much repetition I just looked at the sentences, and it just seemed to click; once I felt more of them clicking [where I may had forgotten a U for fill in the blank] I knew it was time to learn a new batch of words. Just keep plugging away, as anything worth having doesn’t come easy.

The WK/Bunpro duo is honestly so good! I’ve been doing the same, though during my current WK run, I’m focusing on kanji only and leaving the vocab for Bunpro almost exclusively. Back when I was doing WK on its own, I found that I really struggled with the jukugo words (“if you know the reading you know the word”), as I never read them as “whole” words. For example, 水中: every time I saw it, I would think of it in ‘halves’ of すい and ちゅう, not as a whole word. That happened with so many words, so by the time I’d reached level 10 I’d amassed a small army of ‘not words’ that I couldn’t really give you the translation for unless I had the kanji visibly in front of me. By only doing vocab in WK that I already know, I don’t have to worry about the reading itself and can focus entirely on how each word appears with kanji.

I totally agree with repeating the words in Bunpro until they stick as well. I usually create my own mnemonics to help remember each word, so if I find myself still struggling to recall a word without the mnemonic by say, adept 1, I’ll send it back down to beginner level and keep repeating it until it’s an actual word in my mind. I’m glad to hear that the words and sentences began to click for you towards the end of N5! I’ve been having small wins like that with my listening practice the past week or so. It’s such a great feeling when something finally makes sense.

@Noxsora

@Moffitt

I just couldn’t compute what was being said

I used the audio CD that came with Genki and Pimslur
Were there any resources or habits you found useful?
I did Genki 1 and 2 with listening CD and LingoDeer got me through N5

@Moffitt

Do I just take the plunge and accept that I’ll only be able to make out 30-40% of what’s written?

Until N5 level, you will be learning from bunpro and don’t expect to understand anything. I read recipes on CookPad, or watch Ghibli movies. Once you get to N4, start looking up words, for now just enjoy looking at pictures.

I hadn’t done any proper listening practice up until very recently thanks to the recommendation of another forumer (I now do daily listening practice on Natural Japanese for 60-90 minutes). Admittedly I don’t find textbook learning particularly helpful so I haven’t listened to either of those resources. That being said, I’m a big fan of Tokini Andy’s Genki Series. At least to me, he explains grammar points so so well. If you’ve already got the Genki textbooks his lessons are made in conjunction with them.

I’ve accepted that my reading comprehension will be that of a toddler for a little while But that’s okay, pictures are cool too!

@Noxsora

I did kanji Damage + N5 before reading manga. Studying Kanji helps reading comprehension alot.

I’d never heard of Kanji Damage before but ngl “where you can learn 1,700 kanji using yo mama jokes” has me cackling (and also very intrigued). I’ll definitely give it a look, thank you!

@davesies

Just to throw in another resource that I’ve found incredibly useful especially at the N5-N4 level: Nihongo con Teppei for beginners. https://nihongoconteppei.com/

Thank you so much for the recommendation, I hadn’t heard of this resource either! This could be perfect for days where I’m a bit busier and unable to give my full attention for NIJ. I’ll definitely check it out, thank you.

@drhultenstein

i have the opposite problem. very good at listening and feeling the meanings. but struggles at reading and grammer rules

If it helps, you’re one step ahead of me (who struggles with both listening and reading/grammar). If you’re good at listening though, I hope it’s only a matter of time before the grammar clicks for you!

@HagiIshiku

Mine’s was output. Vocab and grammar is only good the more you output and use what you learn. I barely passed the N5 and was only writing for a bit but almost no speaking (Though I’m at a point now where I almost breeze through News articles and stuff with almost little to no trouble expect for names and easily understand anime with no subtitles.) Now, I’m writing down almost every new word or ones am struggling with down in a sentence, self talk and short journal writing on my day, an Italki tutor plus from time to time in VR Chat with EN-JP exchange server and one or two other servers (don’t need a VR set, just a mic and decent computer/laptop.)

This is awesome, I’m glad you were able to find what worked for you and have been growing your speaking confidence! You’re right that grammar is super important. Grammar and vocab go hand-in-hand. You really can’t have one without that other, though I think it’s an individual thing as to what someone may be more comfortable having less of in the beginning to communicate. Thank you for your advice, and best of luck with your studies!

[Moffitt]

@randomrobert33

Once you are at a good enough level in your native language, you’ll see how even the people you respect most hallucinate and steal, and you got to the high enough level regardless, since that doesn’t affect you after being burnt a few times. Valuing quality input during the first 10-100 hours is understandable but staying at a language level so fragile that a YouTube comment with bad grammar or a typo/lie in an article could destabilise your progress is not something to be proud of. Sooner or later you will memorise the common hallucinations and common typos as well and will be immune.

I got to a “high enough level regardless” in my native language because I had years of input before I could even form my first memory. I can distinguish between a typo and other human errors in English because I was taught how to speak, read and write correctly through formal education, children’s shows, books, and numerous other educational resources.

My current level of Japanese comprehension is probably on par with a toddler’s if I’m lucky. I’m not “proud of” being at such a low level, but why on earth would I risk learning incorrect information through LLM’s when I could learn from resources made from human native speakers instead? Of course I wouldn’t be able to recognise the vast majority of errors in Japanese, because I don’t know what is correct yet. If I were at a level where I could recognise errors, then I wouldn’t be needing to ask AI for clarification in the first place.

I began this thread to ask for advice and language learning recommendations. I already said that using generative AI wasn’t for me. I’m glad it works for you, but I’d appreciate not being harangued about it.

[randomrobert33]

@Moffitt

n my native language because I had years of input before I could even form my first memory. I can distinguish between a typo and other human errors in English because I was taught how to speak, read and write correctly through formal education, children’s shows, books, and numerous other educational resources.

My current level of Japanese comprehension is probably on par with a toddler’s if I’m lucky. I’m not “proud of” being at such a low level, but why on earth would I risk learning incorrect information through LLM’s when I could learn from resources made from human native speakers instead? Of course I wouldn’t be able to recognise the vast majority of errors in Japanese, because I don’t know what is correct yet. If I were at a level where I could recognise errors, then I wouldn’t be needing to ask AI for clarification in the fir

How to create more “haranguing”? Frame innocent replies as haranguing.

Correct and incorrect are concepts that imply an authority, are you the authority or do you know the authority? I would suggest that there are more advanced concepts like frequency of use, understandability/clarity, politeness or whatever other distinctions you find useful/beautiful.

Through interfacing with whatever you think is “incorrect”, you could build your own compentency and be free from external authority.

[Urazi]

Your previous reply from 6 days ago sounded really pushy as if you were trying to force the OP to use AI because people are as fallible as LLMs(strange argument but alright).
And now your message sounds like you are doubling down saying there is no correct or incorrect concepts as it implies authority.
Maybe that was not your intent at all as it’s always difficult to read intention in a message.
You overall read as a bit buthurt that people didn’t want to use AI for reason you don’t feel are right.

[Frugal]

By the time I’d mentally translated the first sentence back into English, the audio was already half way through the next sentence

I think this is one of the key problems. When listening you do not have time to translate, you have to think in Japanese, and this is the same with any language. I am in no way saying it is easy, I know I only pick up certain words out of spoken sentences.

Try not to go “私 → I”, “これ → this”, “本 → book”, instead associate the concept of book with the sound “本” so you don’t need to translate, you just know that “本” means that flat stack of pages with writing on them.

One of the things I try to do is always use the japanese for the words when I see them in reviews or written down, I try not to see “本” and think “book”, instead I try to think (at least verbalise internally) “ほん”.

You don’t need to do it all in one go. For instance I still look at that phrase and kind of do a half translate. The bits that are not fully embedded I tend to “think” in English. In my brain it looks like “this 私 of 本です”, because “これ” and “の” are not fully embedded.

[Frugal]

But I’m more than happy to go through the toddler phase knowing that there is a way out of it eventually lol.

Remember a 5 year old has had about 20,000 hours of comprehensible input and learning reenforcement from parents… and still speaks like a 5 year old…

[leoxs]

I’ve been studying for 8 years, and this still happens to me.

You just need practice. Keep trying to read easy texts, and you will gradually be able to read more and more difficult stuff

I recommend starting with tadoku, it’s free, and it has images to help you. You don’t need to know the words to understand, so you will gradually learn more words. Don’t use a dictionary! The idea is that you can guess everything from context. Start with level S, what has almost no grammar, and continue with level 0. That should be easy enough for your level and encourage you to continue. Level 2 is going to become too difficult until you learn some n4 grammar and vocab, maybe.

Free Tadoku Books - にほんごたどく

and btw, every word in bunpro comes with a sentence, be sure to try to understand the sentence when you are guessing the word while doing reviews

[UselessMiwa]

If your goal is passing N5 JLPT, you actually don’t NEED to read many, if any, books. I haven’t read a SINGLE Japanese book, nor have had any formal Japanese traning whatsoever, and after completing genki 1+2(in 6 months), passed N4 with an A in every category.

To be fair, I’ve been watching anime/hentai in sub since 2012, listening to japanese ASMR(both lewd and otherwise) for a while, and love to watch hololive vtuber clips as well as listen to anime OPs and such, but I wouldn’t say I intensely prepped for the test by any means. According to the bunpro N4 deck, I’ve actually still got 90 more grammar points I would need to learn to clear the deck entirely, and it was still more than enough to pass the N4 test

Passing JLPT isn’t a mark that you’ve mastered x amount of japanese by any means, but it’s a concrete goal to go for, which appeals to me(and many others), and I find test taking to be stressful, but I’ve always been good at it so don’t mind. That being said, the listening section is definitely the most stressful. I’ve always been a quick reader in English and had extra time on the other sections, but you don’t get extra time on the listening sections…

If you’re looking to get better at listening, I’d recommend japanesepod101.com. Just listen to one episode a day, and you’ll start picking stuff up. Also would recommend, if you haven’t yet, starting wanikani. Vocab/kanji knowledge is pretty important. Before I even touched a grammar book, I was already 1.5 years deep in wanikani, and it really helped not struggling to try and remember kanji at the same time as learning grammar.

I tried satori reader, and while it might be good for some people, I don’t have the energy to devote to it. Maybe it’ll work for you?

Also keep in mind that the bunpro practice tests are a fantastic resource. They’re quite realistic compared to the test, and are most valuable when you don’t give yourself extra time or redos on answers(especially the listening sections). They are, I think, slightly harder than the actual test though. I think most prep resources are as well.

Also also keep in mind that you’re taking a test, not writing complete sentences, or speaking complete sentences. On the listening section, you pick from A, B, or C, which makes the task significantly easier than it would be in real life(where you’d need to think up a response, and then speak it). If you eliminate just one option as being obviously wrong quickly, then your odds quickly rise to 50/50. Test taking strategies apply.

recommendations:

Learn Japanese Online - JapanesePod101

wanikani(if you haven’t already)
after about 6 months of wanikani: work through genki 1 slowly
skip learning how to physically write kanji, it’s only worth if you’re going to be moving to japan at some point, you’ll never need it. settle for being able to type it.