Grammer progress seems to be outpacing vocab progress and making N4 grammar lesson examples difficult to read

For context, I’ve been using Wanikani and Bunpro in tandem for 2 months after using Duolingo for a year.

I just finished N5 grammar and started N4 recently, and noticed it is now rare for me to run into an example sentence that I can fully read and understand all the vocab of. So in reviews I attempt to read the sentence, give up, look at the hint and recall the grammar. It’s not impacting my ability to actually do the reviews, but I feel like I’m getting significantly less out of it.

I checked out the N5 Vocab deck on here, it has 1100 vocab words, do I need to know all of these to be able to proceed into N4 grammar and be able to read most of the examples?

But my main question is, has anyone hit this wall, and if yes, how did you handle it? I could hold off for 3 or 4 months on new grammar while I try to get enough vocab to understand at least half of the N4 example sentences, or I could just continue forward as-is using the hints to tell me what needs to go in the blank if it won’t have a big impact on the learning process.

Initially I had added vocab I didn’t recognize to my vocab reviews, but bc of how frequently I didn’t recognize vocab it became far too much too quickly.

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I can’t speak to the exact quantity of vocabulary you need to read all the N4 grammar, unfortunately. I actually only started going through bunpro’s vocabulary decks long after I had started using their grammar decks, so there was already a massive discrepancy in their levels. I do run into the issue of not knowing all the grammar in the sentences for my current (N2) lessons; typically, I do something similar to what you mentioned, where I try to read the sentence and then begin checking hints if there’s too much vocabulary I don’t know.

Personally, I don’t have an issue with that tactic. It’s more satisfying when I can read the sentence and figure out what grammar I need to use without needing the extra help, and it probably is better practice, but that doesn’t mean I’m not still learning and practicing if I do have to look at the hints. Plus, some of the sentences could genuinely take more than one grammar point, so sometimes I need to see which one specifically bunpro wants me to recall/practice.

So I would probably keep working on the grammar and just make sure you’re also studying vocabulary as you go, even if you’re at different levels in the two areas. But obviously you have to find the system that works best for you :slightly_smiling_face:

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I did 7,054 cards in anki before switching to bunpro (1,763 are kanji cards). My anki cards are in the “reading” format.
Where I see the word in the sentence and pass the sentence if I can remember the hiragana (for words in kanji) and meaning of the word.
Being able to read is the easiest type to answer.

I recommend adding 10 cards a day in reading type. Either every word that comes up in review or from a frequency list.

Some anki decks are:
Japanese Core 2000 2k Sorted w/ Audio https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2141233552
Japanese course based on Tae Kim’s Grammar Guide
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/911122782
Japanese Core 2.3k
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1146263310
Or JPDB.io are all good ways to learn vocab

I also use the cards for listening comprehension with the audio on the front and the sentence on the back. You can set this up with “card templates”.

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In my mind, its not the end of the world if you cant read the sentence as long as you can understand the use of the grammar point and get the question right. You could also get the browser extension yomichan and use it to find the definition of any unknown words. Although I think you should focus more on vocab though for the time being if you cant understand the n4 sentences.

If right now you are spending like 20 minutes daily on vocab and 20 on grammar, I would maybe spend 30 mins on vocab and 10 on grammar because especially early on having a good vocab base is super important

not super related and you can do whatever you want, but i would recommend againt using duolingo for japanese. there are much better resources for whatever you are trying to do. I know it might be hard to give up a year long streak, but think about how much value you are getting from duolingo and see maybe if your time on it would be better spent elsewhere. It is so much faster to learn vocab with srs from like anki rather than duolingo but its up to you

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Like others have mentioned, I use Yomichan/Yomitan (a pop-up dictionary) to quickly look up unknown words in the grammar deck:

I don’t consider this cheating since I’m not looking up the actual grammar point, just the words I need to understand the sentence.

Also, this allows me to use a lower hint level, so I can try and translate the sentence by myself (before revealing the full sentence hint to check if I am correct).

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I started vocab a few months before grammar here on bunpro, so I didn’t have that problem very much. I have 3.5k known vocabulary on jpdb.io, and in my experience (now on N3 grammar) sentences is kinda like this:

  • 50% of all sentences are readable without help
  • 30% 1 to 3 words are unknown, but everything around it is understandable
  • 20% use lots of unknown words, basically only grammar is understandable

So it’s pretty okay, the tips help me and I even learn some new words along the way. But well, you don’t need 3.5k of words for this, because I have a lot of random niche manga vocab mixed in.

If I remove the niche stuff, I have the 600 vocabs from genki I, and around 1300 words of the most common words, including genki’s. So if you learn the N5 bunpro 1100 deck, you wouldn’t be too far from me in that respect, I recommend it. You don’t need to stop the grammar, but like @airbus29 said, it’s probably better if you focus more on vocab for a little bit.

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Yes, I had hit this wall a while back, before I started using the Vocab feature here on Bunpro. Wanikani vocab – whose main purpose is not actually to learn a lot of vocab, but simply to help with learning kanji – was/is not really enough to get one to a decent reading level.

Quite simply, I just started doing a bunch of Learn sessions on Bunpro’s Vocab, starting on N5, then N4 – a large proportion of which I had already learned either from WaniKani, from Bunpro grammar points, or just from exposure to Japanese in other media, so I was able to breeze through these levels pretty swiftly – and finally N3, where I’ve finally hit the point where I’ve had to slow down significantly on Vocab and just give myself enough time to do the Reviews and let the SRS sort things out for me again.

When doing Reviews, I’ve been doing the combined “Grammar & Vocab” aka “All Reviews” sessions. This means that all reviews are treated equally by the SRS system, so they are only sorted by SRS level, and are otherwise just mixed in proportion. And since I’ve added so many Vocabs, and most of it is still in Beginner and Adept SRS levels, now my progression is no longer ‘limited’ by Grammar, but by Vocab. Which is as I want it because Vocab has been my biggest deficit for a while and is only now starting to catch up by ‘filling in the blanks’ I was missing.

Only ‘hold off’ – or merely just ‘slow down’ – on doing new Learn sessions for Grammar. Don’t stop doing grammar Reviews. Just do the mixed “Grammar & Vocab” aka “All Reviews”. This will automatically pace your grammar reviews in proportion to the amount of vocab you have added to your review queue (via Learn sessions on vocab).

Although there is a lot of Vocab for N5, much of it is pretty easy, and you’ll already have had exposure to much of it, too.

Also, and importantly, I would recommend using the “Fill In / Manual” review type for all the vocab for which that style of review is available (currently only N5 to N3, but N2 is coming relatively soon-ish, also). This style of review is much closer to the typical grammar review style, with a Japanese context sentence with blanks for vocab (so-called ‘Cloze’ style review), and optional hints and English translation. You have to enter the Japanese kana, and it converts to kanji (if apporpriate).

This contrasts with the typical vocab review style you get on most other platforms where you are shown the vocab directly in Japanese and need to produce the ‘translation’ in English. In Bunpro, this style of review is called “Translate / Manual” or “Translate / Reveal & Grade”.

A big benefit of the “Fill In / Manual” style is that you can use the example sentences as practice for reading. In the process, you will naturally be practising your kanji meaning- and reading-recall (say from WaniKani), as well as grammar structures, as well as picking up additional context-vocab along the way.

This alone should address your main concern that the example sentences (for grammar) are already too hard to read consistently. You’ll get lots of practice reading sentences just from the vocab sentences from N5 and N4. (I also use auto-playback so I can hear the sentences read aloud after I give a correct answer, for listening practice.)

A secondary effect (though important IMO, although I understand it may not be so important for other folks) of doing the “Fill In / Manual” style of review is that you get practice with typing the Japanese for each vocab, giving you lots of experience with so-called ‘production’ (bringing to mind how to say/write it) and specifically with using the keyboard to type the words. If you ever want to be communicating in Japanese in writing (say, in typical online comments or whatnot), then you’ll need to get practice doing it somehow, and I find that these vocab reviews give plenty of practice!

I recommend instead just following the JLPT level ordering. For each ‘official’ Bunpro JLPT deck, e.g. N5 Vocab, you can (probably should) set the ordering to something useful like Anime or Novels or General. The default Alphabetical is pretty well useless (and boring as hell) in my opinion. I chose Anime, for example.

It doesn’t make a big difference which ordering you choose. The main point is that you’ll be learning all of the common/important/useful words first (or at least early), and this will help tremendously to ‘fill in the gaps’ of vocab that you are missing.

Maybe at the very beginning, you’ll be learning items that are just so common that you already know them. Don’t worry. Just zip through them as quickly as you like. Since you know them, they will quickly advance up the SRS levels and in ‘no time’, you’ll advance them to Mastered. But while you’re doing this, you’ll be getting lots of experience and practice with seeing the vocab in context, as well as practice reading sentences with other words/vocab and grammar, as well as practice typing, etc.

If it’s ‘too easy’, just zoom through it until you get to some words that are less familiar. These are the ‘gap’ words that you need and are currently missing, which will make reading more advanced sentences that much easier, since they’ll take far less mental effort, and you can focus your efforts on the new/unfamiliar vocab in these sentences.

So, yes, I would recommend just starting on the N5 deck, ordering it by something useful like Anime, or Novels, or General, and then zipping through it until vocabs become the majority of your reviews for a while, until you ‘catch up’ to N4 vocab to match your N4 grammar, and then skip ahead to N3 vocab as it suits you, etc.

If it’s easy, it’s easy and little effort, just do them. (Heck, even enjoy them, since they are so easy to succeed at!) If it’s not easy, then great!, those are the vocabs you want to learn anyway, to ‘fill in the gaps’ in your missing vocabulary.


Oh, by the way, if, in this process, you come across vocabs that you have to ‘learn’, but you really really already know and don’t want to practice with reading example sentences, and typing, etc., then you can easily ‘Mark As Mastered’, and just like that you won’t have to review that vocab ever again.

So, there really is no reason (IMHO) not to go through the N5 deck in some useful ordering (as I said, like Anime, or General, or whatever), to fill in the gaps. At least, in terms of using SRS to study. Lots of folks will say that they find it better to just go out and read Japanese in the wild and you’ll naturally pick up vocab along the way. Whatever works for you. I’m just talking about how to use the BP Vocab SRS system in conjunction with their Grammar SRS system. (Well, I guess actually they are the same system now! Haha :sweat_smile: )

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Seconded. And also there is another extension called “10ten Japanese Reader” (formerly “Rikaichamp”) which I use instead of YomiChan, because it’s a bit simpler to set up and use, and has a more focused/limited set of features (in particular, it doesn’t do the whole ‘generate Anki cards’ thing, but I’m not using Anki, so it’s no loss for me). I use 10ten on Firefox. Not sure if it’s called the same thing on Chrome, but I think it might be.

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I am also on the Vocab holds me back team. Whenever I don’t understand a sentence it usually is not because of grammar I don’t know, but vocabs. For this reason I have frozen my grammar progress and focus on vocab and kanj for the time being.

The good thing is though, even if you don’t understand a word in an example sentence, getting exposed to it time and time again will definitely help you learning it in the long run, even if you only faintly remember it.

Here are some details on how to setup Yomichan/Yomitan if anyone is interested in not only the pop-up dictionary but also quickly generating Anki cards:

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Thanks everyone for the tips and guidance, I really appreciate it. I’m definitely feeling a lot less worried about my progress and feel a lot more comfortable moving forward :relaxed:

Using Yomitan will definitely help with quickly grabbing bits of vocab I don’t understand without having to view the full sentence translation, so I can still try and piece together the sentence!

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I do this as well, with very difficult sentences. If it’s just a word or two, I’ll check the dictionary.

I am sure to add any new words I see to my flashcards so that eventually when those cards start coming back, I can properly read the sentences. I didn’t think this was very good, actually, and was just thinking about maybe pausing grammar yesterday, so seeing someone say:

Is very nice to read. I really don’t want to stop grammar as it comes up a lot when I am reading.

I don’t know what you plan to do, but I think I’m going to do some of the above advice on spending more time on vocabulary for a while, and maybe slow my beginner level grammar to half of what it has been, and see if that works.

I personally think this was a great question and I’m glad you asked it!

Yeah, I definitely agree with @airbus29 and @wct’s comments. Collectively, that’s pretty much my system: I’m going through N5 grammar to fill in holes (I do also read manga, as was mentioned for learning new vocab, and that teaches me things as well! But I don’t necessarily “review” that vocab except by continuing to read), while using the “All Reviews” system so my grammar and vocab are grouped together.

Since it’s N5, there’s a lot of stuff I already know (again, I started vocabulary studies on bunpro much later than grammar), I make use of the “Mark as Mastered” button quite a bit. But it’s also very easy to see when I’ve come across a word I really don’t know, so that I can add it and keep right on rolling.

With this system, I tend to do anywhere from 6-10 new vocabulary words a day, whereas I do usually a maximum of 3 grammar points – and only when my other reviews are low enough. (I know this might be slow by some people’s standards; but I have to be very careful not to overwhelm myself, and slow is better than nothing. The important part here is the ratios.)

So basically, I’m picking up a minimum of 2-3 times more vocabulary in a day than I am grammar. Of course, there’s thousands of vocabulary words, so it’s still going to take a while for me to catch up, so to speak, but it’s essentially what airbus described with doing more vocabulary proportional to grammar.

Basically, this is all just to chime in and agree: change your vocab to grammar ratio, and use decks to help you pick up vocab, but don’t necessarily stop studying grammar just because your vocab is a little bit behind.
To be quite honest, I think this is a pretty common problem; there’s arguably a lot more vocabulary words than there are grammar points, even if the grammar points are often more complex to study…

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