Help: How do people who aren't consistently motivated use bunpro?

[CursedKitsune]

I want to offer a slightly different view and advice to what others have said in this thread, although it is similar in tone. I also am someone who flits between things and has often felt they don’t challenge themselves or stick with things. I think a lot of the rhetoric about discipline and productivity talk about habits is all well and good but it has never worked for me and, personally, it just makes things worse. I think you are probably similar to me, OP, in that forcing yourself to be “disciplined” or “building a habit” won’t work and you will end up feeling worse about your situation.

So, my advice regarding motivation is twofold. First, just focus on what you enjoy doing so long as it is using the language. Focus on what you love about the language - this can change from month to month or even day to day and that is okay. The more time you spend with Japanese the more it will open up to you and it will become easier and easier to study/consume the language. Of course you may push yourself sometimes but only if it is something you want to be doing. Don’t overload yourself - if you have very high motivation one month then don’t throw it all into SRS. Keep the SRS easy and simple and throw that motivation into studying from a textbook or videos or start looking at native content, etc.

Second, all this talk of habit formation is all well and good but honestly I think for some people (like myself, probably you) it isn’t that helpful. I now have a rough habit of studying and using Japanese but it is an accident of circumstance and not something I worked on. I don’t believe in streaks and personally find the idea of doing SRS daily to be insane. Just show up more days than you don’t and you will be fine. Using the language is far far more important (at least once you have the basics down). My own progress has been relatively fast given I work full-time, have a social life and other hobbies, etc. In real life many people I know look at my study habits and say like “wow you must work so hard” or that it is discipline etc but it is none of that and it would be self-aggrandising for me to agree with them. The truth is that I like Japanese and I like language learning so I want to show up to study and use Japanese. Not every day but most days. This love for Japanese was something that grew as I studied more and not something I had at the start by any means.

One very very important thing that I think isn’t mentioned in this thread (I skimmed it so sorry if I am repeating something) is that the beginning is by far the hardest part. Later on it is tough because progress feels extremely slow however at the start things feel impossible and nothing really makes sense. Just keep going and it gets much more comfortable - it won’t feel like that forever. There are also a lot of meta-learning skills that you have to learn at the start and they take up a lot of mental energy.

A final note, concerning moving to Japan and learning Japanese: You refer to Japanese as a hobby but if you are serious about working in Japanese and getting good in a short period of time (3 years is a short period of time, in this case) then you need to not think of Japanese as a hobby and start thinking of it as a lifestyle. Alternatively, you can look for English speaking jobs in Japan and lower your Japanese learning goal to N2ish in 3 years or something (not fast but also not slow for a hobbyist) and treat Japanese as a hobby with less pressure. Once you are in Japan you will be forced to take Japanese seriously by circumstance anyway. I will also say that the vast vast majority of learning happens after N1 (I am not there yet but I am studying for N1 now); language learning is lifelong and not something you can “complete”. Many online learners are hobbyists or do not speak the language even if they can understand it so a lot of online discussion is not practical or won’t match with your experience if you come and live here. Don’t compare yourself and just focus on having as many meaningful connections with the language as you can and you will be fine. Just keep going!

[CursedKitsune]

You can see from my stats directly that I don’t show up every day, sometimes missing large amounts of time, and it has been fine. That period in June where I did no reviews I was speaking Japanese for maybe 4 hours a day and I didn’t have the energy to do SRS - using the language is more important! I reset once around the middle of N3, I think, hence why my retention stats are so high. I am not actually sure why my N3 stats dip, probably failed the same 4 or 5 points over and over.

[Jose7822]

@Edo9

It’s probably the same reason I can’t get into souls games, they’re still just torture for me.

Did someone say Souls Games?

[CursedKitsune]

What do you actually mean by “discipline” here though? Forcing yourself to do something you don’t want to do? It may work for some people but I don’t think it is really a sustainable approach for language learning. Basically all people I have met or seen online who have actually learnt quickly have enjoyed using Japanese or enjoy consuming Japanese media above all else. As far as I can tell the “discipline” talk is either, ironically, a way to motivate oneself or always comes from people who are speedrunning an SRS but can’t actually use Japanese. Given what the OP said I think they will end up feeling worse if they try to force it. My own experience is plenty proof that “motivation” is plenty for some people (and far more enjoyable).

I am not trying to argue but I just don’t want the OP to end up feeling worse and giving up for no good reason. Different people respond to different things.

[Wippo]

Imagine a angry bunpou chan coming for you if you don’t do them.
But honestly I wake up and do them first thing as my morning routine and do them before leaving my computer in the evening as well. Personally I struggle with consistency as well, but SRS is a lot easier for me than drawing regularily or excercising out, as the website does the schedule for me, every review I don’t do today will pile up tomorrow.
Praised be the SRS Gods. (Why isn’t there an SRS for everything?)

So anyhow, my adivse:

• Form a habit
• do as much or as little you can get yourself to do, but do it daily (also shiny streak)
• remember you owe yourself to put in the work, so you one day achieve the dream of speaking / understanding japanese
• remember you have to do less tomorrow if you put in the work today

[rdennison7]

@CursedKitsune

What do you actually mean by “discipline” here though?

Discipline is simply doing when there is an absence of motivation.

Consuming Japanese media is an enormous, and I would argue the most important part of Japanese learning. Even more important than SRS for vocab or grammar. It’s the glue that locks all the concepts in place over time. The fact that you know people who were successful in Japanese because of them constantly dipping their toes into Japanese media shows a level of discipline, no?

You are right, that people approach things differently, but motivation isn’t something one has an unlimited supply of. If OP has a constantly fleeting motivation, then there needs to be a constant there to help push her when she has nothing.

[ExchangeSem]

I relate to your experience a lot and find it eerily similar - one thing that might be worth mentioning is that you might have ADHD! (obviously this isnt a diagnosis or anything but it turned out that way medically for me personally and it could be different for you).

I think personally in my language learning journey there came a point where I had to accept and internalise that language learning is a lifelong every single day endeavour and just doing reviews daily is not something I can bargain with and just have to push through despite not having the motivation. Having that kind of resolve is important, and even then I still sometimes mentally cant deal with it on certain days or when outside life becomes super busy and that’s ok! Its ok to forgive yourself for not being up to things every now and again - as long as you always come back to it. That consistency in intention (even if you dont feel like you have exact ‘motivation’) alongside the substantive kind of daily techniques people mentioned earlier in this thread would also help in my view.

All the best!

[zerohbeat]

This is going to be all over the place:
Doing a bit of soul searching and experimenting may be really useful (at least it was for me). There are soo many hobbies, songs, games, books, movies, tv series, YouTube videos etc its nearly impossible to experience everything. Unfortunately priorities are necessary in a way. Nobody is perfect, there are periods where I sleep well, do lots of work and there are periods where I would be watching or playing games way too much. That’s OK.

Something that really helped me was getting a daily physical planner. Scratching off or ticking off done tasks is fun! Productivity ebbs and flows, there are periods where I study more and there are periods where I just do the bare minimum I have set myself (2 reviews on Anki, Bunpro, Renshuu and read at least 2 sentences of Japanese). I apply for the JLPT just so that I can have something to look forward to and see my progress.

Why not try to stay in Japan first using a working holiday visa or for at least for 3 months (for some countries its possible to extend it for another 3 months ie 6 months total)? Or going to a Japanese language school for a month (or a few). If you are on a student visa, you will also be able to work part time.
These goals are much more realistic in a way and reachable. It will be a good way to actually see if being in Japan is actually what you really want. Plus getting a job is much easier if you are there.

I am saying this from experience. On my third trip to Japan, I studied for 6 weeks in a language school and while there I got a coding job offer. In the end I turned it down. I just realized it was not what I really wanted. Maybe it was timing or I had to face somethings back home. In the end it was for the best even if it was not easy.

[CursedKitsune]

The people I know who have become good have just enjoyed Japanese media. They didn’t force themselves. Of course it is important to sometimes choose to eat your vegetables but vegetables can still taste delicious, if you see what I mean.

I agree that OP probably needs something to fall back on when they have nothing in the tank but in my experience as a learner, as a teacher, and just observing people, I think that reframing their position could be of help. Maybe they have a personality that responds to the rhetoric of discipline but on the off chance that they’re don’t I just wanted to add a slightly different opinion to the thread. These things are never simple anyway, in my experience, so I hope OP can find a solution that works for them whatever it may be.

[distantflower]

@ashe_xo

Would you say thats thanks to Bunpro in particular?

At my current beginner level and very slow pace, I can’t really tell if one particular thing I’m using for Japanese learning helps more than the other. However, I’m quite sure it’s all the things I’ve used together somewhat regularly as a whole that helped.

Only click this after you've done at least 1 review (ღゝ◡╹ )ノ♡

There are some other apps I’ve tried and let them go because they’re adding too much of the SRS strain or taking up more minutes in my day than I’d like. Or they simply aren’t working for me personally. Thankfully, those are free, and the only ones I’ve paid for are only Bunpro and WaniKani (so far).

Alongside the paid ones, I use KaniWani and Duolingo. And then there’s my casual Japanese class almost every weekend, and I do look forward to some of my favourite manga updates. A couple of decades ago when I took my uni’s Japanese 101 class, there weren’t any tools like today. After graduating, I’ve put off Japanese learning on the sidelines for a long time, until the pandemic forced me to ask important questions about my happiness.

What I’m doing now might not seem much, but I think they fit my relaxed but consistent enough pace. I think everyone will have their own ways of doing things, so don’t be afraid to discard what doesn’t work for you.

Mainly, don’t be too hard on yourself, and everyone here has made or given great points that you could choose to follow based on your preference. Just remember not to compare yourself to others and keep reminding yourself why you’re taking up Japanese learning in the first place. That usually helps me refocus and move forward.

Babysteps and try to let go of any ideas of Perfection. Sometimes procrastination gets intertwined uninadvertently with that other ‘P’ word. You’re not alone. hugs

[Lucas-Emanuel]

Hi there,

I didn’t read the whole discussion, as I should have. Just by speed-reading I saw some very good answers here and I don’t know if I can bring in something new and read-worthy. Still, I have to say, that I am facing a lot, if not all of your problems too.

I actually use the Streak to stay motivated. My days and moods are very inconsistent, so I have trouble getting a real routine into my learning. But thinking of that number continuously growing if I do just one Review is sometimes enough. I am around at Bunpro for 600 days or so, and my streak just has pitted the 500. I never would have thought that I would be able to do something like this. It’s much about letting perfectionism go and start to be effective.

Watch yourself when you learn. See, where you have been and where are you now. Get a sense for your progress and your difficulties.
Look which behaviour produced which experience. For example: If you stopped learning, because you just skip as fast as possible through your reviews, maybe set another goal instead of reviewing as much as possible.
Change up your learning process now and then. I find this nearly the most important thing, since I get bored fast. Change the colours of your UI but also give bunny mode or listening mode sometimes a try. Habit of learning is great but no habit can be perfect: it tends to produce mistakes. Just like with the cited problem of Ghostreviews.
Adjust your process now and then to your needs, when you notice that you get demotivated or stopped learning. Change when you notice that your needs have changed too.

Idk, hope that it helps you!

[simias]

I’m lucky enough to be in the opposite camp, it’s fairly easy for me to build habits. For me my daily Japanese routine is like taking a shower or brushing my teeth or going to the gym, it’s not something that’s really negotiable. I know it’s going to happen, and I just go through the motions.

Maybe a few ideas that could help:

• In order to form habits I think it’s very important not to set the bar too high, you’re just setting yourself up for failure. Come up with a bare minimum of study you want to make your daily “baseline” and see if you can force you to go through at least this. It can be very little really, like sorting your Bunpro review by SRS level (a new feature!) and doing every reviews < seasoned. That should be reasonably fast and will let you practice new and difficult grammar/vocab daily until you get it.

This way you hopefully have a very easy routine to maintain, and maybe once you’re done with your “bare minimum” target if it’s a good day you may be motivated to keep going and get more study done. Sometimes the difficult part is getting started.

And if it’s not a good day and you’re tired, you can just do your bare minimum target in 5mn just before going to bed and still feel like you did your job.

• Do you respond well to gamification? Streaks and all that stuff? Seeing a number go up and being motivated to keep it up works for many people. The drawback is that if you slip one day and your 400 day streak falls to zero it can be very demotivating as well…

• If you enjoy games and anime, you can target N3 as a short-ish term objective. If you manage to get through the bunpro N3 grammar and vocab decks (plus the kanji that it involves) you’ll probably be able to enjoy your average shounen content. You’ll still have to look things up all the time of course, but it’ll still be more enjoyable than dry SRS reviews…

N3 is still a lot of content to study of course, but it’s a lot more manageable than going to N1 and above. We’re talking about ~500 grammar points, ~4500 words and around 1000 kanji total.

Good luck!

[ashe_xo]

Thank you to all the new replyers, I appreciate it

Happy to report that I have been doing a lot more Bunpro than usual ever since I set the max reviews to 10. Having a cap really helps me take a break without feeling like im prematurely burning out. I can do 10 while waiting for food to cook or while getting ready for bed etc. It’s been good.

I think the biggest offender has in fact been wanikani, which I always did in tandem with bunpro. I used to spend the first hour of my morning doing wanikani then bunpro. I don’t know how people can fly through the levels in WK so quickly, when I’ve had it for 4 months and I’m level 3! My highest streak on both WK and bunpro before I fell off was 90 days, so even when I was active in WK I must just be going extremely slowly.

So right now, Im going to focus on exploring. I’m going to keep up my grammar studies and think about how to reintroduce kanji, maybe there’s a different tool that I’d prefer.

As for the goal of going to japan, the companies I’ve spoken to aren’t actually requiring Japanese and support throughout the process (they are western companies simply in japan). I’ve got other things that I need to tidy up before I can consider committing to it. It’s less so ‘I need to be N1 in 3 years’, its more about just trying to give myself the best start I can, if I was to actually go.

Thanks for the replies!

[milopiccolo]

There is a lot of discussion about native media in this thread. If you don’t feel ready to start that, maybe you could start preparing by reading graded readers? I really like Satori Reader and I think that starting it helped make my BP and WK reviews a lot easier - once I see a grammar point or a word in the ‘real world’, it locks into my brain better. Even if you bounce off it, it might help motivate your SRS work now that you know ‘what the gaps are’.

@ashe_xo

I think the biggest offender has in fact been wanikani, which I always did in tandem with bunpro. I used to spend the first hour of my morning doing wanikani then bunpro. I don’t know how people can fly through the levels in WK so quickly, when I’ve had it for 4 months and I’m level 3!

I think most people are able to progress faster than this in WK if they spend 30m-1hr every day on it, whether or not they are particularly skilled or motivated or have any prior experience. There might be something about your approach to WK that’s causing you to get stuck? Or the defaults might not be working well for you and you might need to tweak it with userscripts? If/when you start it up again, it might be worth making a thread on the WK forums!

[nadakan]

I have the same issue as you.

Don’t focus on the end result. Know that you have that in mind, but leave it at that.

I read somewhere that if you over-focus on the end result by imagining it so, then you release dopamine upon those visualisations which is quite gratifying. It doesn’t hone delayed gratification and you can become very impatient.

Knowing that you want to learn is enough. Don’t worry about how much you’ve done. Don’t even worry if you haven’t done any in a day. Hyper-vigilance makes the learning process ten times harder.

Good luck. And don’t worry about the rate of levelling up. Takes me ages as well.

[jelyk]

It’s not possible to learn Japanese without consistent study habits, so frankly it really just comes down to how important it is for you to learn. I view it as either suffering the pain of discipline or the agony of regret

頑張ってください

[haxzor143]

It might be worth seeing a psychiatrist to see what they suggest.

[wmwmw]

Medication certainly isn’t a shortcut, but I agree this is a definite case of executive dysfunction which more often than not turns out to be ADHD. Not an emergency by any means if they’re getting along fine, but if this is a frequent source of frustration then seeing a psychiatrist would be a good idea.

[Asher]

@haxzor143 @wmwmw Although obviously well intended, let’s try keep assumptions and assertions related to health (both physical and mental) out of the forums unless that is specifically what the OP is asking about.

[severian]

Wow, really found some of the replies here to be unduly harsh.

@ashe_xo

Having a cap really helps me take a break without feeling like im prematurely burning out. I can do 10 while waiting for food to cook or while getting ready for bed etc. It’s been good.

That’s great to hear! I’ve been using the cap too to keep me to 24 reviews a day, and it feels nice having a set goal for reviews rather than it feeling like a neverending wave. And slotting study time into your regular life is the way to go! For me, it’s when I have free periods at work, or if the “oh, I haven’t done reviews yet!” thought crosses my mind on the train. The more you do it, the more habit-forming it is and easier it’ll be to keep up with.

Best of luck to you!