Honest Japanese learning advice (JLPT, immersion, etc)

Japanese
#21

From this score distribution it is clear where you need improvement, concentrate on grammar and vocabulary. Also check back your previous exam scores, if this need for improvement holds up across the board, to finetune where you need to put in more effort.

Vocab is easy - anki (or your choice of method) and reading. Agree that NHK Easy is too low for you. You need regular news, and articles about more complex matters, politics, societal trends, etc, not love advice - it’s too easy for N2.

Listening - no need to put extra effort here, keep the complex podcasts/ native material, but lower the time spent there and channel it into the weak fields.

Grammar - you need to identify weak parts, strengthen them and read a lot.

Reading - read an awful lot, that should be where most of your time and effort goes, I think. It will help with the reading speed and vocab + grammar as well. But don’t read easy stuff because you will cheat yourself with that and not improve. Read at N2 level. Ask your choice of AI to give you examples of N2 level material.

You may also consider putting together your current learning set up until now, put it into your choice of AI with your exam results (previous ones as well), and ask it what it recommends. You can ask specifically for new methods compared to the current ones you use. Then try and test them.

For now, I think you may also consider letting the JLPT go for some time, unless you need it for some reason. Mental exhaustion makes everything harder than it is actually. Kick back and just use Japanese as you like / need and try again only when you feel like it.

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#22

Congratulations on your effort, that is often the hardest part. It’s a shame you didn’t get the score you felt you deserved, but it looks like you’re doing the right thing by dissecting your methods to ensure future effort is more efficiently spent.

You mentioned you took the N2 tests on Bunpro, but did you take any others?

Before my N5 last year (and i’ve now started in preparation for the N4 in December), I am trawling the internet for as many past papers as I can get my hands on. I have taught at University level, and my son is taking serious exams at school, and I know from this experience that Past Papers, Past Papers, Past Papers are the key to exam success once you feel you know the course content.

And when you get your past paper scores back, do you go through the wrong (and the right) answers in detail to find your weak spots for further revision?

Without knowing you personally, I would recommend taking Past Papers in the comfort of your own space until you routinely score very highly at the level you’re going for.

If you take an N3 test, how would you score? Do you know N3 inside-out, or did you barely pass?

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#23

I feel your pain. My story is similar. I failed the N2 twice before passing on the third try.

Before my passing year, I did one year focused on SKM and one year focused on reading, but that wasn’t enough to pass the test. (the second time, I missed by 2 points!)
(I’m in the US. I can only take the test once a year. :confused: )

The year that I passed, I focused heavily on “studying the test”. I did several practice tests on Migii (I think 3 mini-tests and 1 full test), and I got a tutor for studying, who gave me some tips on how to look at the reading, how there’s several “typical” types of questions, and how to allocate my time. It’s also useful to know that there’s a fixed number of question types every time.
JLPT time – Time management for the test

This all kinda feels like “cheating” but there were still a lot of genuine Japanese language lessons I learned, like typical opening and closing for letters (拝啓, 敬具) and typical Japanese super-indirect way of saying things. By November, I was passing the mini-tests with substantial margin but the actual test was still harder, so it was useful to build up that margin of confidence.
Also, having a full-time job with a long commute gets in the way of study time too!

It sounds like you’re really close to passing!
頑張ってください！

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#24

Honestly, I have been thinking about this alot, haha. :joy:
Starting to sound like a great idea too.

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#25

Another alternative, if you’re like me and don’t particularly enjoy reading the news, is to look for higher level material in genres or mediums that you’re personally interested in.

For example, I’m currently psyching myself up to jump from manga into something harder, so I’ve been searching for some of the YA series that I loved as a kid in their Japanese translations! I’ll have the advantage of having read the story before (albeit over a decade ago) and knowing that I like the characters/setting/etc in advance.
And in case you’re not familiar, you can use resources like learnnatively to get a feel for how difficult a given book will be. It’s not fool-proof, but it’s a good starting point!

I’ve also heard of folks who look for Japanese materials focused on their own hobbies or other interests - I know off the top of my head that I’ve seen a thread (I think on wk?) where someone was a big sumo fan, and used that as immersion/practice.

Personally I’m quite hesitant to ask AI about anything I can’t personally double and triple check myself, but that gets into a different can of worms.

Honestly, it all comes down to test taking being a skill in and of itself. I had to take the SATs before college (gotta love basing your access to higher education on your ability to sit for a standardized test :unamused:) so one of the things that both my school and my parents taught me, in addition to the content itself and the practice questions, was test taking practices.

Even the “if you have to guess, guess c”** trick is just this sort of know-how about the test itself, rather than your own knowledge of the topic. It may feel like cheating, but it’s perfectly valid prep and better to know it than not.

**This was the most common answer when I was taking SATs, which have since been re-done and also it’s been a couple years, don’t take this as a current recommendation.

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#26

I feel like people underestimate this so much!
I think a lot of people who fail by a small margin when they have been studying hard fail not because they don’t have the knowledge but because they aren’t good in exams, unfortunately.

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#27

Apologies. I doubt the total number is that high. I think one of the reasons are I am not that big of a reader in English so finding a topic i can stick with is a tad difficult sometimes. I think I I also get stuck in a circle of ‘i dont what book suits my level yet and how to go about actually dividing it and making use of the words there’.

I appreciate your time and answer. I really am trying to find a good rhythm to reading and improving on it.

#28

tbh you should just read what seems interesting to you, if you worry about how to maximise the reading process and how much learning you’re getting out of it, it makes it much harder and more miserable!
also dont look up EVERYTHING you dont know, you will start hating reading, esp if youre not a big fan already

if you dont like reading much, manga is also a good place to start.

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#29

Thank you @Viki for the in depth response. I really appreciate it and it helps a lot.

was actually a little worried after the last exam that ANKI might not be working well for me. I was using the TANGO N2 deck, and while it was all well and good, after the exam I was honestly thinking, “What the heck? Either I can’t remember anything, or ANKI just doesn’t work for me.” :joy:

Do you have any recommendations for how I could use ANKI more effectively, or perhaps a different way of approaching vocabulary? I’m definitely open to trying something new.

In terms of grammar… I’ll take any and every tip you have. I really feel like I can’t remember a thing when it comes to grammar. :joy: However, I think what you said about reading may actually help me with this as well. If I’m reading more difficult material consistently, I imagine I’ll start seeing the grammar patterns more naturally and reinforce them that way.

I also really like your point about not making things too easy. I think I may have been doing that more than I realized, especially with reading. I’ll definitely try to push myself toward more N2-level material instead of just reading things I can comfortably understand.

And honestly, I think your advice about taking a little break from the JLPT might be good for me too. I’ve been studying toward N2 for quite a while now, so maybe stepping back from the “I need to pass N2” mindset and just using Japanese more naturally for a while would help me avoid burning myself out.

Thanks again for the detailed advice! I really appreciate it.

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#30

Thank you so much for sharing your story and methods. I was looking into Migii as well given some feedback from others. Is it worth the buy?

#31

Thats me for sure. Literally every exam I have ever taken other than the subjects i truly loved.

#32

I mean, of course I think it’s worth it, but everybody’s different… I liked that it had tons of sample questions to go through. If you have the time, both days before the test and hours per day, you can follow the guided path and it’ll hit every type of question. I found that a little tedious (or maybe I was impatient) and I picked questions based on what I wanted to focus on that day. Towards the end, I started doing a bunch of reviews of the listening quick-response because I figured there’s a lot of “quick” points there. And of course, it has all those mini-tests and tests to practice with.

Money-wise, one year for $40 is a pretty good deal compared to the price of a tutor that’s anywhere from $20-$50 per session. (that $40 is after the 50% discount that they always offer). I actually went ahead and got the lifetime membership, partly because I needed more than one year, but partly because I figured it’s always there if I want to refresh myself or in case I’m crazy enough to go for N1. :slight_smile:

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#33

I am happy I could help even if a little bit.

When it comes to anki, the problem is not the platform but the content. Anki with fsrs is an effective system. However, I also went through several vocab decks until I found the best ones I liked and which I felt like they worked. There were some decks everyone was raving about and I just did not like it. So tried another one., then another one until I found the most suitable for me (hints - it needs to have at least one example sentence and native audio, no pictures, those are useless for me)
So my only advice is maybe check out another deck(s), if you feel the current deck did not cover the material you need. Usually in the test you will find unknown words but not to the extent where you come out like wtf was 'dis.

Grammar as well, since you completed shin kanzen master, I think there is no need to redo that. I checked out SKM as well, but actually did not like it, I liked soumatome much more. Everyone is like SKM is the goat, but it does not work for me c’est la vie. I also recommend practicing actual JLPT tests continuously, not just before the test, at least one section, and one more section in the area where you are weak.

I think if you continue reviewing vocab and grammar with high level reading and listening, the reading will help solidify the vocab and grammar, and vice versa. These things are interconnected. Just yesterday I learned a new N2 grammar point in Bunpro. Then I went on the read my current light novel. And I swear like in every other page, that piece of grammar I learned 2 hours prior was popping up. It was getting annoying :grin:
I love reading light novels, which is not high literature for sure. However, I pay attention to find LNs which have a topic or setting which is actually useful. So no high fantasy or horror, but slice of life, contemporary, workplace setting. Do I like romantic vampire fantasy - for sure. Do I read it in Japanese - nope.

Overall, try new things, if something does not work, ditch it asap, and try something until you find what works for you and you enjoy (at least partially, I admit grammar practice is far from my definition of enjoyment).

As for the Japanese language and JLPT, I admit for some reason everyone is so … I am sorry there are no better words for this, everyone has their panties in a bunch because of learning Japanese and preparing for the JLPT. There is this anxiety in this community as well, people actually stressing out because of learning the language, while others tout their progress like I prepared for N3 in 3 months listening to audios while sleeping, etc. I am flabbergasted. I have never experienced similar with other languages I learned.

So maybe let this go, the comparison to others, the anxiety over not progressing, and just find ways to enjoy learning and using the language.

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#34

Why is it cheating to prepare for the exam specifically? It is part of the learning, it is super important to know the rules and how to play the game and research your opponent.

Anyone who has doubts about this: preparing specifically for the JLPT is just as important as learning Japanese, if you want to pass.

Just start that book, there is no need to wait. I love reading and it helps a lot, much more than manga and visual novels. In those there is not enough text :sweat_smile:

I have one caveat about going down the rabbit hole of your interests: if it is something specific, you may end up with a very specific set of vocab and grammar patterns not used a lot in real life.

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#35

You could check out learnnatively and jiten.moe for some suggestions, though difficulty is very subjective due to everyone having personal tastes and different holes in comprehension.
Cafelatte is spot on with just read what seems interesting. Ideally it shouldn’t be the most difficult one out there, but your average LN/VN is spot on for N2+N1 and you read them with some variety and get to the N2/N1 level.

It takes only a few seconds to do digitally and you have to do it less and less. Assuming they don’t pick an absurdly difficult book they could end up only looking up 100-200 words in one LN volume which is pretty effortless. If I have to look up 1 or 2 words per page I feel what I am reading is pretty relaxing. Usually most of these will be early on and be repeated a lot through the book so you learn them just by looking them up if you forgot them. Having comprehension drop is going to be worse in my opinion, but I watch a lot of things without subtitles and without looking up anything so I know the joy of doing zero lookups too, but reading is kind of half fun half study.

To each their own, but I’ve been doing the look up everything strategy since I started reading at N5 level and it never bothered me.

You need to put yourself in a position to see it many times outside of Anki to properly internalize it. Anki makes this easier, in my opinion, but it doesn’t allow you to skip it. Anki doesn’t work well alone for anyone.

For N2/N1 I find detective/police/medical dramas use a lot of these words so if you’re into that it would be helpful. They also use a stupid amount of legal/medical terms I won’t blame you at all if you don’t put in your studies lol, but you might learn some of them just by hearing them repeatedly. Like 急性硬膜下血腫 is surprisingly common across those genres.

These are of course just my thoughts and experiences, they might not apply to everyone.

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#36

I still think it’s not a good idea

  1. It breaks reading flow
  2. It doesn’t encourage confidence in oneself to pick up meaning from context or stretch your brain to recall words you only half remember
  3. It doesn’t help you learn to tolerate ambiguity or trust your judgement which imo are key stills for both progressing in and enjoying reading
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#37

Just to kind of summarise what I and others have said before:

IQ tests don’t measure how smart you are, they measure how good you are at taking IQ tests.

JLPT doesn’t test Japanese fluency, it measures how good you are at taking JLPT tests.

Anki doesn’t measure Japanese fluency, it measures specific memory & recall.

So, you might gain fluency and benefits from NHK news articles, manga, anime, etc… but if you need to pass the JLPT, then you need to get good at taking the JLPT tests.

I tell my son all the time that knowing the course content is part of getting good grades. The other part is knowing how to sit the exam. Because the exam is testing how good you are at sitting the exam.

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#38

Seconding this! I’ve had multiple words lately where I either learned them in wk/bp and then saw them in my manga within 24 hours, or looked up a word from the manga and then it popped up in reviews shortly after. And some grammar points just make more sense when you see them used repeatedly, no matter how much time you’ve spent reviewing them.

I also love reading! Been a bookworm my whole life - I’d blame growing up next to a library, but to be quite honest I think it would’ve happened anyway.

But I’m also not in a rush to always be trying harder and harder content. I want to work my way up to novels for practice, yes, but I’m happy to take my time with it. I read manga that I would want to read in English anyway (or already have read, lol). If I spend some time comfortably at the level I am before I “move on,” so to speak, that’s fine. I’ll still be picking up vocabulary and solidifying grammar/reading speed in the meantime.

Like you said, a lot of people wind up really anxious about their learning process and progress with Japanese; for me, trying to always push faster or harder is the quickest way to stress myself out and smack into a burn-out wall.

You’ve got a good point about overly-specific vocabulary, too, although depending on your priorities I don’t really think there’s anything wrong with that. It’s not like it hurts to know that vocabulary. You just have to also find another method (or story/genre) to pick up the words you do need in daily life.

Ah, but some of us aren’t reading digitally :wink:

That said, I usually fall somewhere in the camp of “look up the words that I completely don’t know/can’t figure out the greater sentence’s meaning without, and leave the ones that I can guess from context as-is.”

Anyway, lengthy responses aside, I think the TLDR here is that there’s a lot of good to be had from reading in addition to reviews - which I think you already know, since you’ve mentioned it as a goal already! You might just need to take a look at what materials you’re reading, and what you want to prioritize/take away from them.

#39

I totally understand your feeling, but I’ll go ahead answer to clarify. I’ll start with what I said was qualified with “kinda feels like”, so I don’t think it is cheating. But many of us feel like a language proficiency exam should test your proficiency in the language, not how well you know the test. Looking at it another way, if someone is well-versed in Japanese, such that any teacher would rate that person at an N2 level, and they function well in Japan, but they fail the N2 test just because they didn’t know some quirk of the test (timing, colloquialisms, business-specific vocabulary, etc), that seems unfair, and therefore “learning the test” seems a bit like dodging the “language proficiency” part. Is there any rule against it? No, of course not. And there’s enough other benefits of passing the test that it is absolutely to your advantage to do what you can to squeeze out any extra points you can. So then, everyone should try “learning the test”, at least a little.
I hope that explains our perspective.

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#40

This is going to sound a little bit weird, but you may need to slow down and let yourself breathe.

It’s important to study hard, but without any time off you’re basically cramming knowledge in without giving it the time to actually settle before you cram more in, and as such you end up with this huge unorganised mess in your mind.

Imagine it like trying to fill up a small bottle of water by turning the tap on full blast, yeah you get a lot of water in there, but lots of it also flies straight back out of the bottle and because it creates bubbles when you turn the tap off the bottle ends up half empty. But, if you slow the tap down slightly you can easily fill the bottle to the top.

Our minds kind of work like that, too much at once leads to knowledge not settling properly, this is why we use spaced repetition systems to slow down the flow of knowledge into a manageable amount to maximise effectiveness, but spaced repetition can still end up overwhelming us if we do too much at once. It’s a mistake I myself have made numerous times despite having a background in language education and ostensibly knowing better.

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