How to consume media/immerse correctly

Japanese
#21

What they said^

I try very hard to keep the media I consume in pure Japanese (no English subtitles sort of thing) to about 80% comprehension, 70 at a stretch if I really, really want to consume that particular thing.
I mostly read, though, I don’t actually know enough Japanese for pretty much any anime to fall into that category, though looking at jpdb there appear to be a few; I also just don’t really tend to watch anime in the first place, so grain of salt.

I also don’t do the thing where I just listen to Japanese just to hear it / let it wash over me–that never did anything positive for me at all and in fact actually had some detriments I had to work extremely hard to get over–but I get that a lot of people like it so I wouldn’t recommend against it or anything.

I think, do what you enjoy, but it seems to me and many other people (such as Steve Kauffman) that 80%ish is really the sweet spot. I naturally gravitated towards that when I started reading because it felt like I was really reading, but it also felt like I was learning, but it’s also what many people recommend.
The more you do the thing (read, watch, listen–I should also mention that all the stuff I read has audio, so I read, then read and listen, then listen, only checking English if I just cannot figure out the sentence lol, and I’ve gotten MUCH better at both reading and listening doing it that way) the faster you get at doing it and the more you can handle. I stopped translating in my head about 60% of the way through N4 because of all of the reading, which I’ve heard is fairly early on, but it made listening so much easier, like holy wow, it was like I beat a much higher level boss and suddenly jumped up 15 levels at once, lol.

So I guess the tl;dr is if you can find some content that is at about 80% for you, and you don’t hate it, consuming a lot of that will be very beneficial. Stuff that’s lower is also great if you want to do it, but I think the 80% range seems to be the best balance of enjoyment and learning.

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#22

I’m watching some anime that I guess could be considered “more advanced” anime (Niche isekais with abnormal story telling) and I’m getting about 30-40% of the conversation. however whenever I hear/see a word that I have studied in the show, it helps reinforce the word tremendously. I’d say even if you have lower than 80% (Which let’s be honest is a relatively high level of japanese, at least in this genre) it would still benefit you greatly just watch for words that you do understand in context.

#23

I think the name ‘immersion’ originally referred to schools where all classes are taught in that language, instead of just language class.

Yeah, immersion is hard. Congrats to everyone here who immeres! It’s a struggle every day.

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#24

I’m curious about what detriments that caused you - I don’t actively do that myself (sometimes I zone out accidently if I’ve been listening for too long), but it’s not immediately obvious to me what the negative consequences could be

Also I’ve really been loving watching Peppa Pig in Japanese recently ( ペッパピッグ ー Peppa Pig - YouTube). As a British person, I watched that show obsessively as a child so it’s really fun to look back on it now, and I think it being in Japanese makes it a more pleasant experience than it would be watching it now in English. But yh, I definitely lean on the side of understanding 80% personally because I think having to look up every other word would drive me insane

#25

Honestly it’s hard to explain, especially via text and I’m still a little afraid after the last time I tried to explain it online, a few weeks ago :sweat_smile:. I spent hours but they didn’t get what I meant. Others have understood it immediately, though, so I don’t know. I don’t want to mess up explaining it on the internet where it might do more harm than good.

I was going to make a video (I sometimes make educational videos on the internet,) about how to get over it since you are legitimately incapable of learning with that debuff, but in doing research for potential terminology and language psychology, I discovered that I could not find a single other person who had reported the issue! No one complaining on Reddit. No tips and tricks on youtube, etc. Nothing.

So, I concluded that this problem is ultra rare shiny, or it would be everywhere since so many people suggest the very thing that caused it for me :joy:. I’m probably just the extreme example of a brain that adapts too well to passive input, but it’s why I always make sure to point out that the passive thing does not work for everyone, (also listening to audio while sleeping.) Fo
many people, it seems to just do nothing at all. For me, it caused an issue. For some people, I imagine it’s like extra SRS points or something similar. FWIW I already make listening flash cards for all of my SRS cards (I was told this is very abnormal,) so I am getting that help, plus the comprehensible audio clicks in my brain in a way that that the less than 60% stuff never did.

I am aware that this was probably not enlightening and that it was also long and for that I apologize. If I ever do think it’s an issue worth a video, I’ll post it somewhere. Hopefully I’ll have a better grasp on an understandable explanation of the symptoms at that time.

#26

Can you link the explanation you already gave before? I have an idea of what could it be, but without knowing anything, it’s just conjecture

#27

Unfortunately I cannot, it wasn’t public and I no longer have access.

#28

My biggest piece of advice is to make sure the content you’re immersing is in the right language. I spent four months accidentally watching anime in Spanish and it was muy malo for my Japanese learning.

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#29

I know about 700 vocab, would getting to 1500-2000 make it easier for immersion? As in understanding more of what is being said? I’m doing grammar study with Bunpro and the core 2.3k deck on Anki and I’m wondering if they will help or is it just immersion that makes you learn more. I don’t feel I understand enough of what’s being said at the moment

#30

I think so, the 1000-1500 more common words appear pretty much everywhere in my experience. But I can’t say it will improve as much you are thinking it will. Going from 700 to 1500 is more than doubling your vocabulary knowledge, but by Zipf’s law, they will not affect your experience as much as learning the first 700. Even so, I learn as much as I can.

Idk what’s the coverage of these “Core” decks though, someone else can give a more informed opinion on them, I just use jpdb.io myself. Also, learning the common vocabulary being used in the material you are consuming, instead of general common vocab, can be a big help as well. Check up Narrow Reading.

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#31

Thank you for the response, I’ll check out those links

#32

Most the replies in this thread are talking about immersion from the perspective of relatively low levels of comprehension (80% or below) and I think it’s probably useful to mention the fact that you could probably consider there to be different “levels” of immersion.

  1. You understand nothing because you do not know Japanese and haven’t studied it yet. At this point other than getting used to the sounds and noticing easy patterns but you will be getting basically nothing out of immersion. 0-2% comprehension. Feels like 5-10%.

  2. You know 0-1000 words and extremely basic grammar. At this point immersion will help you reinforce what you know by seeing it used naturally in context. Unfortunately you probably can’t understand the context. Rewatching something you’ve already seen in English or other methods to make things as comprehensible as possible are worth trying. 1-5% comprehension. Feels like 5-30%.

  3. You know 1000-3000 words and basic grammar. Here you’ll start picking up full sentences and probably have your first dunning-krueger moment. This is probably the moment when immersion learning feels viable for lots of people. 10-60% comprehension. Feels like 30-80%.

  4. You know 3000-5000 words and common grammar. Here you’ll be dealing far more with full sentences however plenty of vocabulary is unknown and there will constantly be grammar you don’t know even if you think you do. 20-80% comprehension. Feels like 40-95%.

  5. You know 5000-10,000 words and some written grammar. Here you’ll be able to grasp most sentences but you’ll start to realise that vocabulary is a massive problem and probably the main boss until you’re advanced. 30-90% comprehension. Feels like 50-98%.

  6. You know 10,000-20,000 words and understand most grammar in most contexts. Here you should have no issues with sentences in basically any context and instead will be more concerned about nuance. Vocabulary is still a massive problem. 50-95% comprehension. Feels like 60-99%. (I am here now)

  7. I can no longer talk from experience but you can extrapolate.

I would also say that you can bounce up and down in comprehension simply by changing media types or domains. It’s a personal choice if you want to narrowly focus on one thing to quickly build comprehension in that area or if you want to consume widely or both. If you have a clear goal (e.g., watch anime) the just focus on that, would be my advice. If your goal is wide (e.g., become good at Japanese) then there is a lot more to worry about.

My opinion regarding immersion is that the higher your ability the more effective it is. There are multiple reasons for this (it’s more pleasant, you can more easily acquire words and kanji and grammar, you’re used to learning Japanese, you probably have direct use for what you’re learning more immediately, higher context makes acquisition easier, etc). Some of the comments in this thread make immersion sound painful - that goes away if you have higher comprehension as you’re just consuming the thing at that point.

I’d agree that 80% is the point where you can feel the effects far more readily. The value of immersing below that point are for things like getting used to sounds, getting used to kanji, picking up individual words, noticing social patterns, noticing gestures, familiarising yourself with cultural things, motivation of being in contact with the language, etc. If it is a slog and it makes you want to not study the just put it on hold until later. For most English speaking online learners it is purely a hobby so enjoyment should be prioritised.

I also didn’t mention like 聞き取り ability or kanji but they play a large role, naturally, and are skills in themselves that will depend on what sort of media you consume.

Anyway, again good luck and just stick with studying and trying and things will eventually come together if you put the time in!

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#33

If you’re up for a read, back in 2022 I kept a monthly log of my “immersion” journey here on the Bunpro forums. You just need to search Immersion in the search field.

A word of warning, the posts tend to get a bit personal, rambly, and philosophical. Still, they helped put some things in perspective for people.

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#34

I’ve made a lot of mistakes along the language learning journey, so I’m still a little new to immersion. In other words, add a grain of salt to this idea. But what I’ve found to be invaluable so far is a tool called Migaku.

Migaku is a service that adds it’s own Japanese (and/or English subtitles). Hovering over any word pauses the video and gives a definition. But, if you want, you can also then, with a click, mine the sentence for audio or kanji, with an SRS review system via their app.

I use it to watch false beginner and intermediate immersion content and pick out words that I don’t know or that I’ve not seen used that way before.

I also use the approach that @Brand_S suggests. Dividing content between the hard stuff that I’m just letting wash over me with both English and Japanese subtitles. And the stuff that I can understand 80-90% of and am watching with 100% Japanese.

But this isn’t informed by any scientific study. This is just the approach that keeps me motivated. Being able to finish an episode of anime with dinner is nice, and then the feeling of listening to content that I can mostly understand whilst bit by bit learning some more and practicing fills me with a sense of accomplishment. It’s the approach that keeps it a habit.

As a final aside, JPDB is also pretty good for teaching the words of an anime and having audio for sentences. With the option to have n+1, so sentence of known words plus the word you’re learning. So you’re not constantly over strained but are learning words and sentences in context.

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#35

Core 2.3k are the 2.3k most comon words in light novels. Originally from iKnow before it went subscription base.かもしれない

#36

Oh, I just remembered: one great way to get closer-to-native-speed reading practice is to read something you know a lot about in real life, like your major if you’re in school.

My discipline is math, and I started reading Japanese math books about a year ago. That practice has supercharged my reading speed. Believe it or not, technical documents are the easiest thing to read. They’re almost never ambiguous, the diction is neutral, and they’re excellent practice for filling in the gaps with context clues.

I buy mine on BookWalker. I always feel like a special kind of nerd because that’s the best site for buying untranslated manga and my library is half math books. Plus they accept USD, so when the yen is weak, that’s like an impromptu flash sale!

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#37

Wow it’s nice pp has a jp channel, I can understand about 85% of all words (and off course 100% meaning, I don’t think someone needs sound to get them)
Thanks

#38

I am mostly commenting to stay on this thread for continued advice myself, but I do have a recommendation.

Visual novels are amazing for Japanese learning, and even better if they’re fully voice acted and you can toggle between English and Japanese. I know for sure this is the case for Kanon and Clannad (NOTE: you need to download a community patch for Clannad on PC). I’ve been working through Kanon this way on steam and it’s so satisfying.

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