I studied kanji for 2.5 hours every single day for one year

Japanese
#57

I was inspired by this thread to give this a harder look. I’ve gone through the WK system and have added many more kanji along the way. Mnemonics help in the initial learning period until you get the vocab practice to reading practice…grind a bunch of SRS levels, some pain ensues…and now you are reading! And no doubt it helped achieve a certain level of reading proficiency hooray :slightly_smiling_face:

However a few problems I keep encountering:

  1. Reading gives a crutch to depend on collocations way too much. Hypothetically, if I can’t read 酒 with reading 飲む or if I’m overdependent on a particular vocab to know a kanji, I don’t really know it. There is a guarantee it will appear in a new or new vocab I haven’t encountered yet or no reference for context to depend on.
  2. The larger issue is that visually similar kanji is not addressed well in with mnemonic methods. The problem only gets worse as you increase your kanji list in your brain. There are always fairly common kanji they we are not seeing on a active basis and it just get stagnate…and will guarantee to get mixed up. Repeating the mnemonic is neither economical or even a long term solution.

On the writing front, I started long ago just a bit but then stopped. Reasons being

  1. It takes a lot time and away from other studies
  2. I don’t live in Japan (or never), so my need is extremely limited
  3. Not attached to my language goals
  4. I don’t have an interest in Kanji Kentei
  5. Because of the aforementioned, I may lack interest over time

Obviously Asher’s method works and I think it could help alot of users here. However, I had a couple reservations if this method was the right fit for me, reasons being:

  1. I simply don’t have 2.5 hours per day :laughing: I mean I could but…that would eat up alot time on other study methods which are largely still beneficial.
  2. I’ve tried redundant writing methods before but by the 2nd repetition I’m spacing out about food, monkeys and clowns. The hamster is on the wheel but not going anywhere…what was that kanji again?

So I wrote my own deck where I’m presented with meaning and kanji and I’m using a handwriting keyboard input to extract the correct kanji and enter it, the SRS will be the threshold. I wanted it as transparent as possible so I’m no mixing with similar meaning kanji. So far, so good though I just blasted through N5/4 in the last few weeks because they are already fairly memorable and on N3 kanji right now which isn’t too bad at all. I’m already finding immediate benefits and the process is enjoyable (and the time investment thus far pretty small). Though I do practice muscle memory during lessons, I’m not writing long pages of repetition…just the amount I want. BTW, here is the Kitsun deck for anyone interested. I’m not trying to compete with other methods or say this best or something , this is just what is working for me ATM and share for others interested. I do like that there is some vocab in the card, may add that forthcoming.

One last note, was told on numerous occasions by natives that writing would be necessary but now I believe. I’ve looked at Kentei resources, they are obviously built with no English whatsoever using exist ony/kuny (those meanings are an English speakers invention after all). I still like the Eng->Jp at the moment though.

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#58

Here is my deck. Please keep in mind that I made this deck purely to coincide with my style of learning, so I made a lot of edits which may not make sense to some people. As for the format, there are a few things I added

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1227772679

  • The most accurate English meaning is on the first line
  • I deleted a lot of excess kunyomi in favor of double dots. For example, rather than しら.べる、しらべ.る appearing twice to show where the okurigana can be, I just made one reading of しら.べ.る, to show that there are multiple okurigana possibilities.
  • I put ateji (non-traditional) readings in brackets, to show words that can appear using certain kanji, but are not an official readings of that kanji. 紅葉（もみじ）, for example.
  • I reordered the order of display for many of the kunyomi, and onyomi, putting more common readings first.
  • I sometimes put a second English word in brackets next to the main translation, if extra context/conceptual information was necessary.

Please note that you are free to make whatever changes you like to this deck after you download it. Everybody has their own style of learning. 🙇🏼‍♂️

Also please note that not every card has been formatted in my learning style, as I am only about 2600 kanji deep into the deck myself, and format them as I go through.

All that said. If you’d like to use it, you’re more than welcome :blush:

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I studied kanji for 2 (and a bit) hours every single day for two years
#59

I also didn’t make any edits to the mnemonics that came with the deck, as I never used them. Feel free to delete that category if you like.

I am not sure how ‘faithful’ the formatting I did to the deck was when I uploaded it. If any of the English words are joined, then it is because the linebreak was not accepted on the upload. In those cases, just click on ‘edit card’, and put insert a line between the words that are joined.

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#60

Did you ever get to upload the video and somehow I missed?
As someone that writes down in a notebook the kanji vocab as part of the exercises of Kanken I’m kinda curious to see!

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#61

I never made a ‘good’ video, as I would have had to scan every page :rofl:. I will however make a quick video today to just show everything… It won’t be fancy haha.

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#62

@Megumin Sorry for the extremely amateur video hahah, you will have to pause it if you want a good look at any of the pages. So that I wasn’t flipping pages forever I skipped more than half of the total.

Hope this gives you a good idea regardless!

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Does Bunpou Chan have a design yet?
#63

Very nice!, maybe I should go insane repeat mode as well eventually, probably when I start level 7 it will be necessary.

So far by writing words that contain the Kanji I’m studying is a enough repetition to memorize it.
That and the Kanji Kentei 3DS exam which I make 1 or 2 tests each day, so I end up repeating quite a bit already.

Also, I couldn’t appreciate well in the video, but those Campus Sketch notebooks how they differ from these ones?

I recently moved from the notebooks I had lying around to those Campus, and the grid definitely helps me have better page layout for Kanji and calligraphy to some extent.

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#64

I think that writing the whole words, like you’re doing would be equally as useful (probably a lot more useful) for memorizing specific words.

The way I do it is just for memorizing all of the readings. That way I can guess the reading a lot more confidently when I see a new word, because I know the frequency of each yomikata.

The only difference between the Campus sketch books, and the ‘section notebooks’ that I used most of the time is that the section notebooks are a lot thicker, and a lot cheaper than the Campus ones. They are basically the home-brand of notebooks, and a lot better value imo. Not sure if you can buy them online, I get them at the hundred yen shop.

I find the grid really helpfully, especially when writing new kanji that I am not familiar with yet. Once I have the spacing figured out, writing it ‘nicely’ becomes second nature.

I can’t remember if I mentioned it or not, but I am planning on taking the kanken at the end of next year. The pre-1 (3000 kanji). I would love to take the 1 (6000) kanji test someday, but probably not for several years, as there is insane diminishing returns after 3k… even after 2k probably. The pre-1 would at least give me a strong enough footing to be able to confidently say that I know kanji better than most native speakers, which is the point I want to get to in order to be able to teach more confidently.

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#65

I want to take one out of curiosity, I fear my calligraphy might not pass even when writing the correct Kanji.

But I think I have to go to France to take it, and is kinda obscure to take this exam outside Japan.

Well, 100 yen per notebook is not a terrible value. If I were to buy specialized notebooks here, it would just be more expensive.

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#66

Another bump/mention to this thread, a credit for the inspiration to take another look at writing kanji which I probably wouldn’t have done otherwise and maybe help someone else. I just finished ‘N2’ in my deck (whatever that means) but it’s roughly the first 1k most common kanji. It’s been super helpful and because of that, it hasn’t felt like a chore or anything…the benefits have been notable. At my currently pace, ~3 a day which is very manageable, I’m looking to finish the remaining joyo+ by end of next year. It’s not kanken prep level (as I’m not working on vocab writing) but it’s doing what my initial goals, distinguishing kanji better, reading faster, pulling together meanings easier, font independence, reading hand writing, etc. But I may look at some kanken material a bit later on just to help solidify or extra vocab practice.

Admittedly, if I didn’t have SRS accountability, I’d probably fall of the rails long ago like I did other writing attempts. The later SRS levels I find, have been a bit more of a challenge where I fail drawing even if read a million times…which is good, it filter whether I know it or not where a recognition only what have been a much easier pass. Another notable, custom mnemonics come easier

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#67

I’m kinda curious about this approach. The whole mnemonic WK thing has ground to a halt a bit for me.

Can you break this down for me like I’m an idiot? Are you handwriting in books or ? What’s a handwriting keyboard.

I’ve got kitsun. So I get your deck, and it’s going to say 人 - ひと、じん、にん on one of the first few cards probably, and then… I think Asher would draw 人人人人人人人 in his book whilst chanting hitojinnninnhitojinnninn, or does it say ‘person’ and then you draw… Sorry I should probably read the thread again from the start, I can’t seem to get it clear in my head.

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#68

So this is just what works for me: I’m not doing the repetitive writing thing but using productive entry via handwriting keyboard. There are a number of handwriting keyboards out there…for ios, I’m just using the Simplified Chinese- Handwriting (add in keyboard settings) and usually get the character I want (otherwise if it doesn’t, I use it as a scratch pad and pass or fail it if being stubborn). There are other drawing keyboards, there are couple 3rd party and I think ipad had a built in Japanese drawing keyboard w/ stencil (I believe), would be curious on accuracy if anyone uses it. Android probably has more options as it always does. On other days not using the app, on desktop I may have pen to paper for pass/fail…so user choice, there are probably other ways too if preferred.

Just like the cards you see, I’m using both the ony/kuny readings along with the English reading (w/ synonyms) to distinguish what the required kanji writing that are necessary. It’s a broad threshold but is usually enough information to not run into common meaning issues as the readings or list of synonyms allow the distinction. Again, I’m not treating like Kanken prep or anything since it’s not challenging vocabulary, just kanji.

I tried repetitive writing in the past but it wasn’t for me, I was spacing out too quickly so I let the SRS decide whether I have the muscle memory or not. Repetitive writing is probably better for cleaner stroke orders and overall penmanship probably has memory benefits too if you have the time for it. As I’m doing new lessons with less familiar radical, will take the time to repeat it physically but I don’t feel the need to repeat it a 100 times. I’ll also use the WK or Jisho links to look at mnemonics if I can’t think of one (usually make my own in my head), see some vocab words associated or watch the brush stroke video.

Again, not claiming one method is better than the other…it’s just what was time effective to what my immediate goals are and still remain effective. There are a number of handwriting apps to check too like ringotan. No matter the methods, I definitely believe there is benefit to writing without even the goal to write but rather iron out common reading issues and similar kanji constructs which I hit a wall with just recognition methods or repetitive reading or using vocab to reinforce the kanji. WK is great, you can get alot of low hanging fruit in a short period of time, but like everything else, I find learning methods need evolve depending where you are at in your studies. Jumping into writing too early could be frustrating as well, certainly helps to be well familiar reading the kanji before writing them.

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#69

Super glad to hear that the writing approach has been working well for you!

I still can’t fathom why so many people are against it. For me at least it’s more effective than a mnemonic by far. Perhaps due to how carefully you actually stare at the kanji/strokes in the process of writing.

3 a day is a great pace! I was most comfortable with 3 new kanji a day once I got above 1000 or so. It was enough to feel like I was making ground, but not so much that my reviews piled up. Right now I am only doing 2 a day and mayyybe 3 if I find a new kanji in a book or something that I really want to learn straight away.

For me the pencil to paper process works best, but I can’t see why it wouldn’t work just as well on a tablet/phone etc.

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#70

I wouldn’t go as far as to say ‘chanting’ but it’s pretty close… Ok maybe it’s chanting :rofl:.

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#71

There’s a very good one for iOS called mazec. It’s something like $10 for the Japanese version (you can buy support for other languages as IAP, and there’s also an optional subscription that I don’t think is very useful). You can correct individual parts of your writing (e.g. delete parts or change the characters that are recognized), and it’s already relatively accurate by itself. From the ones I’ve tried, among the ones that don’t require correct stroke order, it’s probably the best at recognizing complex kanji. It’s also nice that it’ll show the hiragana spelling among suggestions (or readings if it’s just a single kanji).

(As a side note: Keyboards on iOS inevitably end up with reviews complaining about all the rights they need. This is because by default, they are not allowed to communicate with anything at all, not even their own app. In mazec’s case you can opt to not give these permissions if you don’t trust them enough, and the keyboard still works fine, you just can’t use the features that require setup in the app, such as custom letter shapes.)

Yes, you can use Apple Pencil to write Japanese anywhere on iPad, but IMHO it’s not a great experience. It assumes you’re done as soon as you take a little break, which is really easy to do by accident for complex characters with many strokes… or even just if you’re writing near the edge of the screen and then one stroke isn’t recognised because it’s too far outside the allowed area. There’s no other way to correct anything other than deleting the text and writing it again, but the pencil gestures for that are not precise (in contrast, if I use the Pencil with mazec, I can just tap its buttons with the pencil, so it’s still really smooth). It’s also generally less accurate for me than any other option I’ve tried, e.g. so far it’s the only one that’s managed to read a perfectly fine は as 片.

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#72

Writing is a good way to memorize kanji even if writing is not one of your end goals. For me reading is main, but writing them while learning makes them stick better.

Sadly it’s quite a manual process, but there are some solutions out there that implement SRS into the process, like Kanji Kentei 3DS software, they have also some phone apps if you want to check them out, although I personally don’t use them.

This software not only works on the writing of the Kanji though, it also does radicals, readings, related words and antonyms.

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#73

I’m an Android user (samsung tablet).
I took a look at ringotan but it was too easy for me to cheat as it corrects as you draw. But I like the concept of drawing on my tablet.

So I get the prompt for people/person/ひと and then I’d draw 人 on the screen and it would recognise it…

So I’d be able to do this using your kitsun deck and some software for recognising my handwriting on my tablet?

I guess the stroke order etc isn’t important to the kitsun deck in this scenario (if it ever is on other decks)

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#74

Nice, I haven’t heard of mazec before. I’ll give it a closer look later today. And thanks for the feed back on the iPad Japanese keyboard, there is the similar issue w/ the Simp Chinese keyboard; either write it at speed or don’t lift your finger until sure of the next radical. Occasionally, it wants a slight variation (e.g. 仏 or 薬) and I’m pretty sure I’ve got the stroke right, I don’t know Chinese to say what they use but I don’t believe any are kokuji that I’m working on.

It’s a good question for learners, when to start? I’m not certain when to recommend, everyone may be different. Knowing and being able to read the kanji and some vocab associated beforehand (and continue to do so in outside studies) is definitely an advantage. But again, had I started earlier, that would have helped too. So maybe when a person has encountered a fair number of kanji/vocab and are more actively reading?

Nice, it would be great to keep hearing your progress and what you are working on! :+1:

Correct, whatever kanji writing keyboard that works for you. I know Google keyboard has handwriting input, it’s free so it may worth a first try but I don’t know how well. Chinese Simp handwriting may work too. I think the one nekoyama mentioned above (mazec) may be available on Android, others here may have better recommendations. But think most of the ‘free’ version have a similar feature; it will auto-erase if you don’t write fast enough (or lift your finger from your screen with a pause)

This is true, the gesture to generate the keyboard input is the threshold here technically however it does have some stroke order sensitivity. So I suggest using the stroke diagram or the brush video in the Jisho link that has a confirmation of your work and there is the brush order guide in deck posting that give a basic overview on radical order if just starting (which most become predictable even after modest practice). Again, if the keyboard is stubborn, I will use it as a whiteboard and confirm myself I drew correctly or not…depends how smart the keyboard is.

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#75

Would you recommend doing this, but writing words? I have been doing it with individual kanji for almost a year, but I’ve been thinking of getting that kanji in context deck for anki and starting to write words. What’s your opinion on this? :thinking:

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#76

Great timing, as I was actually just thinking about this myself recently. I would say that it would certainly be helpful, but perhaps would only be inclined to recommend it for words that you often forget, or have an obscure meaning that doesn’t fit the kanji very well.

If you’re doing this method for kanji, it’s likely that your recall of words will already be quite good, as you will be a lot more intimate with the kanji within those words. Specifically because of this, writing the words that are kinda curveballs/don’t fit the logic of the kanji will help a lot in remembering those.

Conclusion - Will it help? Yes. Is it an effective use of your time? I am still on the fence myself about this.

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