It's getting harder to recommend Bunpro

But this is like saying “you have to memorize the hints” and it is not good for a methodology or even SRS.

In another threads similar to this actually I even tried to explain the difficulty (and similar situation as kaniwani) but there were those users who study Japanese like 10-12h a day and they always replied “oh, it’s the nuance”. I even stopped checking threads here in bunpro, because it seemed bunpro is intended only for those hardcore users.

If this tool is aimed at people who have lots of free time and get the nuance, well, it is not for me in the end.

The hints aren’t perfect, but at least one time out of three all I have to do is think about the word choice in them and I’ll know which one the options I’m supposed to go with. Not because I memorized the hints (that inevitably happens eventually), but because I took a while to reflect and contrast the options. That’s not perfect, but much better than “can you say it another way?” Synonym hell is part of being in the intermediate trenches: we’re still using a precarious study scaffolding to reach higher we otherwise be able. Kamesame came up with “yellow answers” to mitigate this, BunPro just started experimenting with the new hints, but it’s also just mitigation. For now, I’m very pleased with the attempt.

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I read this thread with interest as I’ve also noticed some of the same issues in the more verbose grammar explanations, and have had to make caveats about these when recommending Bunpro to friends.

I applaud the Bunpro team for taking the criticism on board, fixing the errors, and removing the unfounded speculation from the な explanation. As others have mentioned it is still a bit troubling that the speculation ended up in the explanation in the first place (and that there was so much initial resistance to removing it). This quotation from Jake also concerns me:

We have quite a few theories about how or why things are the way they are in modern Japanese. Like many of the existing theories that other’s have speculated upon, there isn’t a lot of concrete evidence or well written papers to support them (I guess that is why they are still theories :joy: ). In this particular case we still strongly feel there is a connection to the 聞き手 - 話し手 relationship even in the prohibitive な and will continue to research and build upon it.

If the thorough rebuttals in this thread have not shaken your faith in this theory, that suggests it is no longer a theory but an assumption, and unfounded assumptions are very dangerous in linguistics because they lead you to reinterpret the available evidence in order to support your assumption, often without realizing you are doing so. (This is how conspiracy theories like Flat Earth work.) You can see examples of this earlier in the thread (e.g., posting an article as evidence for the theory when a statement in that article directly contradicts the theory) as well as in some prior threads where the Bunpro team’s speculations are discussed. In order for a hypothesis to be useful, you have to be willing to reject it when the evidence does not support it. It also has to be falsifiable in the first place, i.e., you have to be able to lay out beforehand what it would take to indicate that the hypothesis is not correct and should be rejected.

If Bunpro wants to make a novel contribution to the field of Japanese grammar (e.g. potentially submitting an article for peer review as mentioned above), I would encourage you to look into consulting professional academic linguists about it (or better yet, bring one on board). Speculation without the appropriate training on how to evaluate linguistic evidence, create a testable hypothesis, etc., is likely to lead you astray and result in errors.

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Have the same issues here. I’d say this partly because of the increasing difficulty in the intermediate-advanced grammar and my lack of understanding it properly, but I also think because there are many grammar points with slightly different nuances it gets hard to distinguish them and have the srs sort it out.

I also have my own doubts continuing with bunpro, despite having bought the lifetime sub. It might proof useful again later on, but yeah definitely have that maybe it’s time to move on feeling.

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Thank you. In that case, please make sure to remove this example as well.

Despite this, it is important to know that this の is exactly the same as the possessive の (with the following word simply being left out).
あの、あなたがっているですか。

I feel like I’m repeating myself but again. This is not the same grammar. We’re not looking at “Noun+の(omitted noun)”. There is no possessive の in this sentence. 乗っている is a verb.

Thank you for this, sincerely.

Thank you. Another possibility could be to add a reference to the grammar point page which links to a forum post discussing the theory. That would also be a more productive way to dialogue about things than clogging up the feedback pipeline.

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Is it possible that you’re perhaps looking at the wrong part of the writeup? The part about it being possessive refers to the preceding examples. The information following the final sentence refers to that particular (non-possessive) usage, and that it will be discussed in a separate grammar point.

Edit - I can see how it could easily be interpreted that the above paragraph is about the following sentence. I’ll add the final sentence to a caution box, so that it completely separates it away from the main theme of the grammar point.

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This example sentence has no place on the page for the grammar point in question. It’s something completely different and belongs on its own page.

You literally have one sentence saying “this is exactly the same as the possessive の” and then immediately show an example that is not the same at all. Jake already mentioned that you’ll be adding separate pages for this kind of の. Put it there instead.

That’s amazing! Last time I checked it was either 3 or 5 globally, so I opted for 3.
Which felt too much for me in terms of grammar, but not enough in terms of Vocab.
Thanks for clearing it up, you guys are awesome <3

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We very regularly have sentences from slightly different nuances of similar grammar points specifically in caution sections when we think there is a possibility that users will mistake them in the future, or at some point in the learning process.

I’ll have a chat with the rest of the content team when they are awake (sorry, very late here), and we’ll then make a decision about whether a caution section will help users (will keep it), or hinder them (will delete it).

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Yeah I mean the more I learn the more I see small differences/errors in the materials. There have been many situations where I showed Bunpro materials to a tutor and they were basically like “wtf”.

I’ve used these apps daily for several years:

  • iKnow - easily the best overall, huge amount of vocab, sentences, and listening content
  • WaniKani - best for kanji - nothing else comes close
  • Bunpro - best for grammar - nothing else comes close

Are there some errors in each of these? Yeah ofc. But I would be hugely disappointed if any of these didn’t exist.

IMO the goal of language and language-learning apps is to increase understanding. There is so much nuance in language and it’s impossible to be 100% precise at all times, even as a native speaker. Some errors are acceptable and it’s all still progress on the path to fluency.

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Dude this thread is so frustrating to read. There’s a way to bring up mistakes and suggestions without doomsday clickbait about the inevitable collapse of Bunpro as a whole, and without publicly singling out individual staff members in what seems to be an attempt at public humiliation.

If I, a Westerner, felt that the whole approach to bringing up criticism here has been quite unnerving, I can’t imagine how Japanese people would feel…

To the Bunpro staff: I am very impressed with your level of courteousness. I frankly wanted to pull my hair out multiple times when reading the tone in some of these posts. And you all still took the opportunity to extract the feedback amidst the vitriol. Thank you for all that you do, and the way you go about doing it.

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Hello, thank you for getting back to me! I was not expecting you to change your writeups or add new functions. As I pointed out, it is probably impossible to make everyone 100% happy. I just wanted to share that I felt the same about all the technical terms. If others like them, good for them, since I think users like me can simply skim over those terms. Some people may need even expect them.

As much as I personally don’t see much value in learning about different -詞 terms, I actually like the Fun Facts and other Kanji history additions a lot, since they often help reinforce some grammar or make it easier to understand the “why”.

Really appreciate the work you did so far. All in all, I am very happy with bunpro :slight_smile:

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Well I don’t really see what’s so bad. If you got two years of good value out of bunpro why would it be hard to recommend? If it helped you get to where you are then it did it’s job, didn’t it? I’m not where you are in learning and I don’t know if I’ll ever get there since it’s just a hobby for me. But at this point it looks like you have a walking understanding of the language. That’s not a reason not to recommend this site. If someone wouldn’t recommend me this site just because “ya the end lessons and really advanced stuff isn’t completely fleshed out” I’d be very angry. For me I think bunpro does a great job on opening the door to japanese.

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Hopefully caution sections aren’t deleted based on pseudo-academic navel-gazing by a few users on the forums. The point is for the learner to get a foothold so that native material can solidify their understanding. Associating different use cases for a word or sentence pattern, such as the caution sections and the where-did-this-phrase-come-from sections, is a great way to build mental sockets for a learner to fill up over time as they encounter example after example. I strongly disagree with the people saying that descriptions are too wordy.

The Bunpro staff has been more than patient with fielding complaints. (There must be a bucket of kittens at the Bunpro office to keep everyone calm.) But at this point it’s turning into tacit acceptance of grumpy behavior. There’s no way that someone able to read native articles started a thread complaining about an N5 grammar point in good faith.

I hope Bunpro keeps doing its thing. It’s been extremely helpful.

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I don’t have a lot of experiences in Japanese, but I followed Bunpro since a few years now and I tend to believe the website is much better than before. Firstly the design, but also the grammar points are better, more sentences, suggestion mechanism etc…

I remember the verb conjugation which were hardly understandable when I started learning japanese and used Bunpro to learn new grammar points.

However, I realise that because of those “lengthy” grammar points, I have stopped to follow links listed in the ressources section. Considering that the details section is all I need to know about this grammar point. I was comforted in that way when I realised that the number of lessons was still increasing and one grammar point could be split up into several lessons depending on the usage.

Which actually makes me realise that I do not know the objectives of Bunpro, but I never took it as an exhaustive source for the grammar. Hence, the presence of a “ressources” section which I think is great! But maybe, considering the new format for lessons, a way to invite the reader to read them (at least some of the online ones) would be welcome.

Another suggestion which joins the criticism made above about the following point:

Same is happening now in N2 with bunpro, cant see any difference in “judging from” or “from the point of view” or “from the stand point” or “cant help but”…

Most of the time, sentences in bunpro are only valid sentences. However, to infer a rule, it could be nice to provide also invalid sentences.

For example this is how modern AI works: If we want to train an AI to recognize images with a cat, the dataset contains both images with a cat and images without a cat. Otherwise, the AI will likely give poor results.

Even though some Bunpro lessons contain invalid sentences, and even though I just finished the N5 lessons, I already feel the lack of invalid sentences for some grammar points. Considering the way Bunpro works, by relying on many examples, I think it would be nice to see in the future more “counter-examples”.

In any case, I don’t think it is harder to recommend the website on my side, it is rather easier. However, we should be careful about what Bunpro provides (and can provide) or/and its limitations.

I did not see any roadmap by the company behind Bunpro, but maybe that could help to understand better what should we expect in the future and what is the direction followed.

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Small aside that “off” in English does literally work like this so its not like it is impossible.

The alarm was set off.
The alarm was turned off.

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Actually, if one doesn’t understand the grammatical terminology in Japanese, they cannot place into intermediate Japanese classes in some places. For example, page 12 of the course listings for the Japanese-American Society of Washington DC Japanese Language School specifically asks, if one wishes to enroll in an intermediate or higher level course:
"
Can you understand grammar words in Japanese?
Example: 品詞、主語、述語、名詞、動詞、形容詞、形容動詞、自動詞、他動詞、不規則動詞, etc…
"
Course Listings Link

I think that Bunpro should include such language. Those who are not interested in it can simply ignore the information.

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Dang!! Long thread, and not even that old. Harsh vibes too.

But hey, while we’re at it, I do want to throw in an anecdote re: writeup verbosity, but it’s actually a fairly nuanced statement. Let’s see how well that goes over :wink:

For context as to why I can say what I’m about to say: my friends and I hold brief study groups every other Saturday evening, half as a social function and half to hold ourselves accountable for getting back to reviews if any of us have “fallen off the wagon.” So I get opportunities to see how different people engage with the Lesson-taking leg of learning.

My friends and I work through Lesson content very differently from each other. I’ve mentioned before, but I’m a very gut-feel learner, and also have a lot of bootstrapping in-place because of having learned chunks of the language phonetically first; my approach to Lessons is to glance at them, skim quickly over the writeup if at all, usually completely skip the examples, and start grinding away at the SRS.

I’m sure a lot of that almost-complete-disregard for the Lesson content is because I’m in large part just ironing out the wrinkles in stuff I “already know” and formalizing my understanding somewhat, but I approach learning new things the same way as well; I have a similar pattern even on WK when I’m looking at a new kanji that I don’t recognize for crap.

Meanwhile, one of the friends in my group is extremely rules-oriented, and he pours over the writeups and examples, which are absolutely essential to him, sometimes even complaining that they don’t say enough!

His learning pattern and mine have very poor affinity so it’s hard to share knowledge between us :laughing: But I’ll say with absolute conviction that there’s immense value in having Lesson content that is both skimmable but which also goes deep into the weeds.

My suggestion? Could just summarize the most critical info in the first paragraph(s) or so, and then have a Read More thingy that sites like YouTube and Pixiv have taken up.
Alternatively, you could have a radio button switch, similarly to what you have for politeness registers in Lessons, or the Grammar / Vocab split you present on the dashboard, for choosing whether to see the “outline” or to show the “in-depth” writeup.

Anyway, if it makes y’all feel better, I’m definitely in the “No better product than BunPro, would highly recommend” camp-- Being a WIP comes with both big plusses but also caveats, but I think as long as the fact that it’s perpetually-WIP is clear and transparent, the positives vastly outweigh the drawbacks, and I’m always excited to see it grow!

I mean, heck, being WIP means that if you buy Lifetime, that means that you get infinite free future value! :wink:

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MY NIHONNGO IS BETTER THAN YOUR NIHONNGO.

->.<- no i wont speak it with you.

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The amazing thing is that once you actually know Japanese you can just read through https://www.kokugobunpou.com/ in a couple of hours and learn all the fancy vocabulary you need to enrol in such a course (but if you actually know Japanese why would you want to enrol in such a course?).

The real question is, are you trying to learn Japanese, or are you trying to learn linguistic stuff about Japanese? And if the answer is the latter, why not focus on the former first?

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