Itte(i)ta

Bunpro
#21

I don’t think you will ever bother us. On the contrary, I believe that each and every comment you will add to this subject will enable each of us to learn a new detail.

would you please say your idea, what do you think with this sentence???

I copied and pasted from Bunpro. May everyone be happy :slight_smile:
(I would like you to write your answer before going to the page and checking what the translation is. )

あの人が「あなたは綺麗ではない」って言っていました。

this is from Bunpro N5 Lesson 6: 9/13 - example sentece 7

What do you understand when you hear this sentence? Please read and share with us what you understand.
*The translation is located under the same sentence, I do not find it necessary to write it again.
But please, no spoiling the game. I left the mine, let’s see who will step on it. :partying_face:

1 Like
#22

I’ll bite. The way I would translate that would be:

That person said “you’re not pretty”.

But I could also see it being translated as:

That person was saying that I’m not pretty (depending on context).

I’m curious about the gotcha part :joy:.

2 Likes
#23

Suppose there are people A, B and C.

A said something “xxxxxxxxxx”
and now B is telling to C about what did A say…

firstly what did A say to B ??
and then, What did B say to C ??

YESTERDAY’s SMALL TALK
A: … … … … … … … … …
B:

TODAY’s SMALL TALK
B: あの人が「あなたは綺麗ではない」って言っていました 。
C:

WHO said WHAT to WHOM ???
Who is 醜い in this conversation ? :thinking:

#24

That was the scenario I thought of when I wrote my second translation, so I guess I already answered that question :blush:.

2 Likes
#25

So you’re saying there are only 2 possible scenarios and I touched on both… right? Maybe there is also person D, who knows? :bomb:

#26

No, I didn’t say that at all.

On the contrary, if you look at my second translation I did say “depending on context”. You gave a scenario that was similar to what I was thinking when I wrote it, but now you’re adding more variables after giving a specific situation. I feel like you’re being disingenuous in order to prove your point.

#27

I cannot limit your imagination. I just drew a perspective. If I had thought that the answer to the question I asked was easy to understand at first glance, I would never have bothered to ask. You used your :blue_heart: to reply. Just be patient and wait for other “brave hearts”. After a while, I will explain how many possible scenarios there are.

#28

I haven’t read all of the message, mostly because yours are hard to read with all the romaji and formatting… But it feels like you’re just over analyzing this? Japanese is a highly contextual language. So trying to know “exactly” what is being said without that context is just ridiculous. Even being in the context, words can be ambiguous.

I don’t know what your Japanese goals are, if it’s just purely speaking or not… and I won’t tell you how to spend your study time of course, nor do I want to discourage you from these forums and your want to learn :two_hearts:

but if it were me, I would focus less on these discrepancies and tackle at least the first 100 kanji

9 Likes
#29

I used to overanalyse everything I read in JP. Turns out that was the thing that held me back the most. It’s better to just move on, you’ll get it eventually as you start to use the language more.

Edit: While it may seem counterproductive to just skip parts of a sentence you don’t understand, I found the opposite is true, as often the context you require to be able to understand something said earlier on in the sentence can be found later on in the sentence.

When you stop to analyse every part of a sentence, you end up forgetting the context, which makes it even harder to comprehend what is being said. Increasing reading speed is key.

6 Likes
#30

^^^ This

I will ask my Japanese linguist friend about this today to see what she says. I’m maybe she can help us get through the murk.

I agree with most others here that generally speaking the difference in meaning is negligible beyond an emphasis on confidence or time span.

Similar to past perfect in English.

The difference between, “I had said” and “I said”

Secondarily, I would not be surprised is it’s a conflation between the different kinds of た. While we learn that it marks past tense that is not 100% the case. It also marks completion in a stative way.

The most common version is お腹が空いた。Often this is mistransliterated has “my stomach emptied” rather it’s better to see it as “my stomach is(has become) empty” as the 空いた is a final state of a process, rather than a past action.

Like I said I’ll double check and report back in.

2 Likes
#31

If the point you’re making is that Japanese is heavily context dependent, I think most people in these forums already know that. No need to wait for others to give every possible scenario to your question.

At first I had interest in this topic, but I’m quickly becoming disillusioned. I though we were going somewhere with this and, as was mentioned before, your condescending tone doesn’t help either.

3 Likes
#32

Have you considered r/LearnJapanese?

#33

So I doubled check today and in fact it is the case that this version:

と言っていた is past perfect tense not past progressive.

It depends on the verb. In English we distinguish by aspect, so we can say
had said or was saying. Japanese does not make this distinction. Depdening on the verb one or the other meaning hold.

Her other example was ビルを立っていた。The building had been built. Not the building was building.

Verses マラソンを走っていた。I was running a marathon. Not I had run a marathon.

6 Likes
#35

And how does this reply help anybody or further this topic?? Now you’re just deliberately attacking a person and making an unnecessary fight.

3 Likes
#36

Just to add to what Sidgr said, I believe 言う is/can be a so-called 瞬間動詞 (I called it stative earlier in this thread which could be misleading as that is used as a translation of 状態動詞 in the models below - I was trying to imply that once the action is done then it is always in a state of having been done). These terms are not really ones used much by natives themselves but I tried to find some resources on this topic for people to look at.

This is a very simple video explaining the basic idea in easy Japanese but with no details.

This video explains it in a bit more detail. You’ll note that some verbs are able to work as both a “regular” 継続動詞 and a 瞬間動詞. Also worth noting that a lot of materials on this topic are aimed at foreign learners or, in this case, Japanese people teaching foreign learners - it isn’t something Japanese people study in school, as far as I know.

Here is the Japanese wiki page on lexical aspect. Sidgr mentioned aspect above - interestingly it seems a Japanese linguist ( 金田一) attempted to apply the idea to Japanese and the wiki page explains his theory a bit. The same guy is mentioned in the video above as it is his classifications of Japanese verbs that we’re using here.

This is a blog post which explains 金田一’s model a bit more simply with examples etc. This is much easier to read than the wiki page although it lacks the context.

You can find a discussion on a blog about the general area of this topic (aspect and verb types) in English here, here, and here. They use the terminology of 遂行動詞 (performative verbs) which I think I have never seen used outside of that blog but their opinion seems well researched at least. It’s enjoyable to read if you are a grammar nerd anyway.

To reply to the OP of this thread more specifically, I am not sure there needs to be a lesson on the “rule” that you have brought up as it comes under the umbrella of a far more complicated part of Japanese grammar and isn’t limited just to 言う. I don’t think Bunpro could facilitate every nuance like that, especially as I don’t think it is something that comes up on the JLPT and Bunpro is a JLPT focused resource. I have long suggested a series of articles that aren’t in the SRS system that deal with nuances or larger topics. Also, if you have a further point to make then it might be best just to make it so it can be judged on its merits and not on drama :wink:

4 Likes
#37

Too add on to what you said, the verbiage my linguist friend used was
完了形 (completed form) and as you said 継続形 (continuous form) and this distinction applies to 過去(past) and 現在(non-past).

Here is a discussion about it:
ゆる言語学ラジオ 「た」には6種類あるし、○○も□□も表せる【た2】#90

3 Likes
#38

I have only seen those terms for English tense so I’ll have to check out that video when I get a minute, cheers

2 Likes
#39

Nope! You’re the first.

I didn’t insistently say anything. I only said once that I was getting disappointed about the direction the conversation was going, given there was zero progress being made. Thankfully there are very knowledgeable people in these forums who actually contributed to the topic. Theirs are the comments I look forward reading.

4 Likes
#40

Locking the thread as I think it has run its course and gotten a bit to rowdy :upside_down_face:

11 Likes
#41