I felt stupid as hell once I realised, like “how did I not notice that?!”. Such is most of my experience learning Japanese 
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I thought the weird imperative points were so obvious until I remembered that the subjunctive in Germanic languages only looks like an imperative. So in a sentence like 犬であれ猫であれ舐めたくないわよ I would just read that as “be they dogs or (be they) cats…” and it kind of worked.
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Hm, one lightbulb moment I had was with the なくては/てはいけない sentences patterns. I always confused myself thinking that なくてはいけない was “must not do” instead of “must” for the longest time haha. I understand it perfectly now but that was a confusing point for me.
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I feel that, it was a source of confusion for me too! It took a while to hammer it in for sure. Japanese really loves double negatives…
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I strongly disagree with that assessment. Only because it was true 1500 years ago doesn’t mean it holds any water anymore.
I will give you simple analogy: all civilisation developed language first and technology later. Does it mean that if we would send back to the ancient Rome english course, latin - english dictionary and collection of modern books, anybody would be able to read them without learning how our technology works first? I don’t think so. After a few sentences there will be reference to electricity, evolution, car/trains/spaceships, chemistry, methodology of science, nuclear power or million other things that become basically unseparateable from our languages.
And technology has much weaker connection to the language than writing system. We codified our languages using writing. Before it there was no such a thing like a language in modern sense. We would called them dialects rather because language differ from one settlement to another dramatically. With kanji this connection is even more brutal since it pretty much use readings as an afterthought. So basically there was NO Japanese before kanji. There was collection of dialects that with influence from china and kanji after time formed what we call modern Japanese language. Those dialects had much simpler and less structured grammar and incomparably less words. And therefore much easier to learn for foreigner.
Learning to speak first and write later with Japanese is pretty much making you job harder. Try to understand what “kaoooou” means without kanji.
Any luck? It is just 顔を覆う. I did’t even had to check it out in dictionary on first encounter. 顔 and 覆う pretty easy words.
When someone explained that there were two different types of Ru verbs and to distinguish them by if I or E came before them. I was going mad failing so often and just memorizing one by one when I realized I’d missed something so fundimental
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Kanji 100000% does not use readings as an afterthought. I am sorry, but I must strongly… Strongly disagree with this sentiment.
The vast majority of kanji use the sounds ‘first’ as the meaning. The only purpose of kanji is to add nuance to the sounds. Saying that a language cannot exist without a codified written system is not correct… For any language, not just Japanese. This is not only true for back in history, but for right now. I am not sure if you remember being a child, but most children around 6 years old, who cannot read or write, are able to perfectly communicate their wishes purely through sound… Only sound. Words, and humans relationship with words as ‘sounds’, (not writing) is deep and ancient.
Japanese is just a language that uses sound more precisely than many other languages. A perfect example of this, you will quite often hear native japanese speakers having conversations using almost exclusively onomatopoeia, words that reflect sounds and actions (and have no kanji).
It is easy for a native person, especially Japanese, to convey very specific meanings without any kanji.
For example, あの、さっきのなにかあったんだの？なにかがぎゅう〜と…でがぁん〜とって、ぽかんって。
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You know that there’s cultures in this world that don’t have writing systems, right?
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I will have to differ 
Kanji was created more than 2 thousand years before it was adopted by Japanese people. If you will see how it is use in Chinese you will se that sound is totally irrelevant. Kanji convey meaning and chinese evolved with kanji to reduce each meaning unite to just one sound. Although even after so many years of literacy they never manage to codify their pronunciation - since their reading system does not care about it.
In Japanese the process was more convoluted. But you can not claim kanji did not shaped how their word formation rules works and so on.
And yes: i know how children learn language: painfully slow with a lot mistakes. We spent about 13 years of their life constantly correcting their mistakes and we send them for most of the day to school where teacher try to hammer rules into them. It is not exactly organic process.
But even if it was it does not proof me wrong. Children learn the language they are have access to. They do not question how that language was form.
Yes. Very simple one isn’t it? When you heard last time about now movie made by culture without writing system?
Simpler culture implies simpler language. There is less high concepts.
So you’re saying that high technology requires a writing system, and because Japan is a high tech society, they must have a developed writing system to reach that?
Many years ago, when Japan adopted kanji, they were not a high tech society. China was the world superpower (that corner of the world, at least).
As far as I know, the evidence is inconclusive as to whether Japan had a writing system before kanji, but there is general agreement that the basis of the spoken language existed before kanji.
When did I say that 0_o?
I only said concepts available in the language do former that language. Kanji is one of those concepts and they are very close to the heart of the language so have huge impact on it.
And I never said proto japonic languages didn’t exist before kanji. You are just not learning those languages since they are dead for centuries. If you put modern person from japan into pre kanji era they will understand nothing. Same apply with English. Try to read something very old in English without translation and you will see that this not the same language anymore.
That implies there’s no connection to the modern language. Even in English, the current writing, reading, pronunciation, and grammar rules are direct descendants of ancient language through many years of evolution.
The quote that you initially reacted to was pointing out that Japanese was/is a spoken language first and a written language second. Many people (Japanese and non-Japanese alike) agree with this idea and many learners find that it’s easier to understand Japanese as first a spoken language with a writing system that was “added on”.
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@MacFinch I feel like I can’t convince you at the moment. But trust me, once you are much deeper into your studies you will realize how deeply intertwined the kana sounds are into the meanings of words.
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Hmm… We can make a bet.
I have started speed running Japanese 50 day ago, and I intend to keep the pace for next 50 day. About 6-8h per day. I am working under the assumption that kanji are the key, a few other methods which are not very popular. I put not effort to learn how to speak nor listen since I work under the assumption that those will follow naturally after huge input in reading as it did when i finally manage to learn English to the level needed. Which N will able to pass within next 50 days? Not counting listening since I don’t want waste time on it.
At the moment i have 1200kanji learn, most with at least one reading, and 2k of words which I understand. I will finish n5 grammar on bunpro today. I started 10 day ago - before I was studying from different sources. And i am reading at least about 2 pages per day constantly increasing that input.
100 days. I should fail completely if my assumption about kanji is wrong.
I did try to learn with leaving kanji for later before. I never got beyond chapter 4 of genki or even to past tense with Tae Kim.
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Ej! a didn’t disagree with that at all! I actually agree on that 
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Discovering that kanji is the best thing that could ever happen to us, learners.
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I like it! 
Interesting approach.
I’ll be interested to see how you feel at the end of 100 days. So that’s the end of February, like 2/28? What is the goal? How will you measure your success? Online sample test?
I honestly wish you the best of luck! 
Actually I want to write report on how far i could go during that timeframe. So I will have to do some testing to get somewhat objective markers. If you know any tools that can gestimate how good I am that would help with my project
I am not huge fan of those kinds of test since they are not in line with my method. I learn kanji and words as i meet them in the text. I did some kanji list at the beginning (n5, n4, n3 and from most common kanji in novels, when i was not able to find enough in text because of reviews and studying grammar - plus i learn all root and “sub kanji”).
Just one kanji from today: 垢 It is on position 2135 (about once per book) in most common kanji in novels. But it happen in the text, and I will review that text a few times in the future plus read more from that author so it is easier to just spent 10 minute and kick start the process of learning it than debate if it is useful kanji. SRS will do the rest. Most common kanji are most common so there is no need to examine every and single one of them. Waste of time. And in this case it will help me with 后 which is much more common.
I like kanji a lot so I am not going to stop at mere 2000 anyway. 
My goal is to be able to read for about 2-3h and not cry next day because reviews of new material… at my worst i had 240 kanji to review. Now i constantly have 200-300 words which is demotivating a little bit. That’s my dilemma at the moment: i want to read more since that is useful exposure but when i do so next day i have to read less because of reviews… But I know it is temporally problem. It was the same with English. This stage I just have to brute force.
I don’t if you have seen my Clannad thread. That what i am reading for last few days. Better than Harry Potter… Harry Potter is a little bit above my pain tolerance at the moment. I spent about 3h decoding first 2 sentences…
Btw if I sound rude sometimes it is because I couldn’t be bother to learn English keigo 
Just recently i have discovered emoji can help a little bit to tone down the way I form my opinions 
So no offence.
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