The Kanji Thread ("How good is my handwriting?")

I use Wanikani, currently level 31. I do it every day. I figured if I threw 20-30 minutes at the kanji problem for a couple of years I’d get pretty far. Just over the halfway mark now which is motivating. I hardly ever use the mnemonics though, like other have said before me in this thread, they kinda suck. Wanikani without a redo button is also just unusable, so I use an addon to get one.

I also just read a lot (about an hour every day). Currently I read books with furigana, but when my sentence parsing is at a higher level then I will start on books without furigana. Currently reading books with furigana but with relatively difficult grammar (currently 君の膵臓を食べたい). I already have a big list of books that don’t have furigana like that that I purchased for my kindle which I want to read. Even reading with furigana solidifies known kanji decently, though obviously not as well as reading without it.

The idea of dropping furigana scares me shitless though. I come across so many kanji I don’t know while reading already in furigana books. I tried reading a page of an easy furigana-less book (level 26 on learnnatively) and ran into a lot of issues already. I even miss a lot of kanji that I’m supposed to “know” already. I feel like I’ll have to read like 5 books without being able to enjoy them before I
can properly read books without stumbling over every kanji.
I’m willing to put in time and effort to learn kanji but man will I be happy when I can just read.

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The idea of learning all the extra mnemonic information like that felt more like a barrier than a shortcut

I’m on the same boat as you. It is useful sometimes, but (in the context of WaniKani) I found myself struggling more to remember the mnemonic and which part of the several words sentence was the actual meaning. Other times I’d confuse mnemonics from two different kanji, so I felt that memorizing the thing itself was less of a hassle. I realize we can create our own mnemonics, but then that’s another step to something I’m already struggling with :sweat_smile:

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Drawing Kanji has always been a self-care type of relaxing activity for me. It was my favorite part of my time learning Chinese.

I spent years learning Chinese but I remember nearly nothing.

I took 4 years of Chinese, two full year HS classes online and 4 semesters in University. In HS I wasn’t the best student, and instead I would draw characters into a dictonary to look them up for tests and stuff. In Uni I couldnt shortcut my way through anymore, so I refined my jank knowledge of stroke order and radicals and ended up being known as the person who could draw characters the best in class. By Chinese 202, our teacher was just passing us all along (he just wanted us to show up, learn something, and he was happy) so I never got more than like 200 characters in. The knowledge has been extremely helpful when leadning Kanji, I know common radicals and have a good rough idea of stroke order.

I am a strong visual learner, mneomics do nothing for me. WaniKani and I just do not vibe together. I prefer to draw Kanji to memorize.

In contrast, I am very weak at ordering vowels correctly. I was like this as a kid learning how to spell (freind or friend? neighbor or neabour?) and it carried into Chinese (ai? ia? ou? uo???) and of course Japanese as I honestly can’t tell you which words have the extra u’s in them or not, I just guess.

SO, knowing my strengths and weakness, this is how I do Kanji:

  1. Using the Kanji Study app on Andriod, I added almost all N4 Kanji, 3 a day using the SRS. Skipped nearly all N5, Kanji of which I knew the English meaning + at least one Japanese reading. This step is just for recognizing the Kanji.

  2. Having finished adding all desired N4 and N5 Kanji with the SRS, I have now gone back and begun writing them in pairs. I use the app study function to test myself on writing. The system lets me know immediately when I get a stroke wrong. When I’m short on time or just starting a batch, I’ll run through each Kanji once and see what I know. When I have more time, I’ll check the “add quizzes for missed items” box and draw every Kanji until I get them right. My goal is not actually to be able to draw them from memory on pen and paper; instead, I use drawing as a way to get familiar with recognizing Kanji really fast in the wild and making sure I can differentiate them from similar characters.

  3. Bringing it all together. My brain has a really big disconnect when it comes to actually seeing a Kanji and reading it with its correct sound, especially (ironically) on-readings. My solution to this is … I’m just going to need to read a lot, lol. Learning the readings through flash cards and tests doesn’t seem to work for me. Maybe after the 50th lookup I’ll finally remember that 映画 means “えいが” and not “movie”, as an example.

This is what I’ve found works best for me after much trial and error. I only spend about 10-15 minutes on Kanji Study a day and feel like I’ve made great progress since I started 80 days ago.

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Simplicity is king. I get all of my words from immersion that are split into two decks: vocab and kanji. So whenever I get a new word, I see if the kanji has/hasn’t been harvested, then I add them into my kanji deck.

I used to have a goal of 10 new kanji per day and would immerse until I reached my goal but stopped once I hit 2000, as it gets a lot harder to add newer kanji using that method.

But for reviewing them, I guess the general meaning of the kanji, I don’t bother with on’yomi/kun’yomi as that’s given from the context of the vocab word that was harvested. Finally if I get it right or wrong, I write it out the kanji three times.

From my experience, just writing it down helps a lot in pointing out small differences between kanji and you can see relationships where you otherwise wouldn’t have done so easily.

In terms of how long this takes per session can range from 30-45 minutes per day when you’re in the thick of it. But once you hit that 2000 kanji threshold, it’s more like 10-15 minutes as I get probably 3-5 new kanji per day via immersion.

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When I started learning japanese, I used a radical and then a kanji deck on anki. Whenever I finished the radicals and was looking at kanji only, I would write them in a math notebook, but I wouldn’t pay much attention at the stroke order, I was learning its meanings, but writing them down helped them stick for some reason.
Right now I’m being a bit more strict with it and started all over (of course I skip the ones I’ve seen a million times) using a 漢字検定 deck. I’m slowly going through it everyday.
Honestly if you don’t like kanji, I think it could be a waste of time. I enjoy writing them and I find it relaxing so I just keep doing it everyday.

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I do my daily dose of words in the vocab deck, write their kanji in AnkiDroid, then practice them alongside the kana. then rinse and repeat

What helps remembering them? Definitely not SRS. Okay, SRS is important but SRS itself won’t be of use if the kanji isn’t ANCHORED to something that already exists in my memory, because then you will need extra efforts just to try remember something

How I proceed is making sure to understand the meaning of the components + doing mental associations. :smirk: The more stupid the association, the better (お皿. :grin:…)

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Last time I put a lot of effort into studying kanji, I’d SRS them in the direction “reading + meaning” → “mentally draw it / trace with a finger in the air”.
Example prompts would be “カイ break こわす”, or “ソウ search”. For me it worked better than trying to remember which of several similar English keywords correspond to which of several kanji with similar meanings.
The main focus is on the phonetic component, if there’s one.

I have a bit of a love/hate relationships with mnemonics. I’d rather remember etymologies and not have any weird mnemonics in my long term memory, but especially for kanji with a very abstract etymology, a weird vivid unrelated image can work better.

Anyways, not actively studying or maintaining kanji now, hoping that once I start reading more, they will just all fall into place.

edit: reflecting on it more, my residual kanji knowledge seems to be quite context-dependent.
For example, reading a sentence about a book with a word 参考 in it, I don’t remember what 参 means specifically, but context immediately suggests さんこう, and that cross-checks with the same kanji used in some shrine visit-related words as さん, and also in まいる, and also, belatedly, there was a mnemonic that linked those three lines at the bottom to 三 さん.
This might not be the state to attempt a kanji test in, but good enough for reading.

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Started by learning to draw kanji from english keyword for first 400-500. Then realized I was probably wasting time and switched to lazy kanji. All of this was in anki. My lazy kanji method rn is just having the kanji on the front of the card and stroke diagram/readings/words/meaning on the back. If I recognize the kanji (keyword/meaning) then I pass the card. I dont bother tracing or memorizing the readings (unless its part of the keyword, which ive been slowly changing from japanese to english for all cards). Never used mnemonics, wanikani, radical study, or memorizing readings. Readings and radicals come naturally with time, and memorizing the readings is pointless. I have like 2200 kanji in my anki, I just add them as I see them in vocab while I immerse (if Im not lazy)

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  1. kanji damage ex Q: roll over, EN, TEN ころ*がる
    A: 転 ころ*がる something tumbles 自転車 bicycle

  2. no furigana on my vocab. I noticed my kanji got worse when I swithed to bunpro. For months I would hover over words in anki when I went back
    EX: EX Q 寿命が尽きるまで待っている
    A:寿命(じゅみょう)()きるまで()っている
    寿命:人生の長さ。

I read a blog post that said furigana on hover is OK for N5, and after that disable it. but it’s such a pain to set up innitially, and painful to give it up when starting N4 if your used to having it… I’m glad I never had furigana.

1 year after I ‘learned’ all the kanji. I switched to go the otherway. So I see 転 and if I say Ah that’s 転んだ it’s correct.

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Hello! As this thread goes on I will probably post about various different kanji and thought it’d be a good idea to introduce some terminology bit by bit so that future discussions make sense. So, first topic of discussion to that end is…

The Six Varieties of Kanji (六書)

In Japan, one common method for classifying kanji is by splitting them into six different types. This system is based on historical classifications and is still used in modern native kanji dictionaries. You may be sort of familiar with some of these categories or intuited some of them. Let’s get into it.

Type One: 象形 (しょうけい)・Representative Pictures

This type is literally just a picture of the thing, so like how 木 is literally an image of a tree and 人 is literally an image of a person (although harder to see that now).

Most learners first learn about this sort of kanji and understand kanji in these terms and is probably the easiest type to learn, assuming you know the actual origin of the image. There are a lot which in modern writing do not really look like the thing that they are, which may lead learners and natives alike to not realise what they are looking at is a literal representation. E.g., 鹿 was an image of a deer. The below image is Chinese but you can see the evolution on the right:

This type is also sometimes referred to as pictographs.

Type Two: 指事 (しじ)・Abstract Representation

This type is an image that represents a more abstract idea. Easy examples include 一、二、三 (one line is “one”, two lines is “two”, three lines is “three”), and things like 上 and 下.

指事文字 are not very common and generally easy to understand. There are sometimes 指事文字 where the meaning/use has changed which could cause confusion but generally these ones are simple to learn and understand.

This type is sometimes referred to as logograms.

Type Three: 会意 (かいい)・Combined Ideas

This type is a combination of simpler parts which represent things or ideas and create a new meaning when put together. This type is highly suited for using mnemonics as the story used will literally be the true origin of the kanji. Common examples are 森 (three trees make a forest), 休 (as person 亻resting on a tree is having a rest), 炎 (fire + fire = FIRE), etc.

A lot of learners mistakenly believe that most kanji fit this pattern when they start learning as a side-effect of using mnemonics, which encourages assigning meaning to all kanji components when they aren’t necessarily being used meaningfully in that specific kanji (which we will get to in the next type).

This type can be called compound ideographs in English.

Type Four: 形声 (けいせい)・Meaning and Sound

This is by far the most common type of kanji and therefore the most important one for learners to understand the workings of. This type of kanji is made up of a ‘semantic component’ (意符) that shows the meaning and a ‘phonetic component’ (音符) that shows the pronunciation. For example, 時 is made up of 日, representing time, and 寺, representing the pronunciation じ. Sound components can then be used to guess the readings of various other kanji. From 寺 (じ) we have 時、持、侍. But we also have exceptions like 詩 (し) and 特 (とく). Most sound components are inconsistent like this.

An important thing to note about this type of kanji is made up of two parts (there can be complications but just keeping it simple here). This means that when using mnemonic systems meant for learners it is artificial to split this type of kanji into more parts. For example, if we have something like 時 then it is possible to split it into three: 日、土、寸. Doing this is of course fine for memorising but it does have the negative that it makes it harder to intuit the actual makeup of the kanji.

Another thing to mention is that the phonetic component will only ever be related to the on’yomi, as it is based on the usage in Chinese. The kun’yomi will never be hinted at by the sound component.

One more thing to note is that the semantic component will normally also be the “radical”, which is the component used for dictionary classification. I will probably write something about “radicals” in the future as the terms are used in various different ways in English which can make it confusing.

This type of kanji makes up the vast majority of kanji so recognising it and understanding what it is will help you analyse new kanji you come across and guess the meaning and reading in many many cases. It is really a super power.

Type Five and Six

These types are actually about kanji usage more than formation so I will leave them out for now and talk about them another time. Something to look forward to :wink:


So, let’s apply this. Let’s say I want to introduce the kanji 取.

We can see that it is made up of 耳 (which is an image of an ear, 象形) and 又 (which is an image of a hand, 象形).

This kanji, 取, represents a hand ‘taking’ an ear. This actually comes from the practice of soldiers cutting the ears off of dead enemies (to count them). So 取 is actually 会意文字 (combined ideas character).


What do you think? Does this sort of classification help or make things more confusing? If you already knew about this sort of thing, how or when did you learn about it? Do you wish someone told you on day one of learning? Do you make use of this sort of system when learning or just ignore it?

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I learned hiragana and katakana through Tofugu’s website, and then Wanikani felt like a good fit for me to learn kanji. So I primarily use mnemonics to learn.

Somewhere on Tofugu’s website, I found an article about different types of kanji, so I had learned a bit about this some time ago. However, I had totally forgotten about it, and the refresher here was… well, refreshing!

I think having this classification is very helpful, and I wish WaniKani mentioned it more when introducing kanji. They tend to mention when a certain radical is always pronounced ちょう for example, but I would love a bit more information for why.

The evolution of the deer kanji was amazing, and I’m really looking forward to more of these!

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Where does that image come from? If it’s from a book, it seems like it has some nice illustrations, and would be something I’d like to read.

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I didn’t know this and I would like to know more. I have never liked mnemonics for some reason, so I have basically brute forced a lot them into my brain :sweat_smile:

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What a wonderful thread!

There are so many people talking about the practical value of writing kanji that I might incorporate it as well.

I had 2 runs for kanji.

The first one started on the fifth day of my Japanese studies and lasted around 30 days. I’ve spent ~90 hours on it, making up mnemonics in an RTK style. I was using SRS, and after some time, I felt tired. The situation got even worse because I couldn’t recall them fast, and stopping for 20 seconds in front of each kanji wasn’t looking good for me at that time. So my 1700 learned kanji meanings disappeared from my memory right after I gave up my SRS deck.

The second try has taken about ~70 hours. I was learning one 音読み for each kanji using, again, RTK order, to learn kanji with the same readings that come from a specific component. It didn’t finish well. I added 1500 kanji, but doing 5 hours of SRS per day was a bit too much, as well as though that “I don’t even want to read anything”. So I gave up again, and how one could imagine this route kanji-sound disappeared really quickly, as it was the only connection I’ve created.
Can not say it was the most productive time, but definitely was worth trying, never have regretted this my little experiment as well as the first one.

Recently, we’ve hosted a person whose language learning abilities were on a very high level, and the topic of discussion during that one week period was almost always going to hit SRS and Anki.
The main concept I’ve taken from those discussions is that “you have to take new and combine it with all you know, and all that is out there”.

To make the matter even worse, I’ve watched the first season of “Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency”, which made me like the idea “everything is connected” even further, and continued pulling me away from the idea of SRS, counting words, and working for numbers, as it provided only minimal connections, and wasn’t giving me the deep understanding that I conceptiually stared to seek.

The announcement of mock JLPT tests from the Bunpro team has awakened me from my sleep the night before the travel, and awakened the fire of looking for new studying methods, and not anywhere but specifically in Japanese.
That night I’ve slept only 2 hours, but instead I’ve come up with a new idea of “Holistic Approach for Learning Japanese”, where I would combine every little piece of information I have, and go deep into every little aspect of the matter to make it one a part of me, so I couldn’t lose it easily, and so it would serve as a massive fundament for a future learning.

The next day, on the 15 hour way home from Bulgaria, I was trying to combine everything I know to understand what I’m going to do with all of that.
Trying to incorporate kanji as well, I was looking for something, and I stumbled across outlier-linguistics.com. With this website I discovered how interesting and fitting kanji with their etymologyes are in my picture of a world. The whole way I was reading different articles on the website, scratching the surface of the topic.
The first article was about differences between “radicals” and “functional components” and it’s hit me really well:
Kanji Radicals in Japanese. Don’t Do It. – Outlier Linguistics
When my plane was about to take off, I was buying their dictionary with etymologies. It’s still the best resource I’ve found in the language I can use.

I don’t know exactly how, because I was in a state of flow, but now I have my kanji learning setup that addresses most struggles I had with words, kanji, and recall in the past, and I can boast that it evolves every day.

What I did was I took a deck with all the joyo kanji, and cleaned it up a bit, added a few new fields like “words” for words I know with that kanji, “tip” to write what I’m recalling, if it’s kanji’s meaning, onyomi, kunyomi, “note” where I basically put all the things I want to put there.

Now the whole process of learning works like this:
(everything happens on an iPad)

While reading, I’m looking up words in app yomiwa, which is a host for outlier dictionary, and if I think I’m familiar with kanji in a word (which is almost always the case for the time being), but I don’t know the reading, I look up the list of words with that kanji in the same app.

When I’ve found a word I know really well, that can be written using that kanji, I open Anki and find that kanji, adding that word/words in “words” field. This is definitely a very important step, as now, I don’t have to remember the reading, I just have to recall the word that includes that kanji, which is incomparably easier.

When I added enough words and I feel like learning kanji, I open anki and start doing reviews, when a new word appears, I try to research everything I can about it: etymology, type of kanji, its earlier appearance, components inside it and how they looked like, vocab, sentences, what are the other kanji with those components. Trying to ask as many quastions as I can. And adding some of that information in anki, less or more, based on how well I know the kanji and the associated word, so most of the time added stuff is only notes on which component gives sound, which component meaning, if there is one original meaning and form of the kanji, picture of old form/forms. This process usually takes 10 - 30 minues for each kanji, time needed depends on how well I know kanji, its components, word, averything else, and how much info I’ve got from my main sources. Somethimes it takes 2-3 hours but I learn a bunch of different stuff about China and probably understand the whole branch of kanji much better than before (before == non).

When I review cards and can not recall the card I do the same process (which goes much faster as I recall it imediatly when starting again) and trying to go further, because probably I forgot something, maybe what components mean, or I just have to understand the context of that kanji better.

So if we take what I usually look for it would probably look like this:

And cards usually and up like this:


or

Sometimes I just go through basic kanji like the first one above, because they are the most interesting and maybe/probably profitable to learn etymology, for many reasons.

So ye, I’m trying to make my learning process even deeper with every day, and if you have any ideas (maybe you know what my first screen is missing to make understanding even better), please share them, any feedback is necessary! (if someone has managed to read it though, because I just have taken a loot at this text and it’s actually huge!)

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Six types of kanji? what do you mean? there’s only two, ones I know and ones I dont.

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On a more serious note- after the first 1,000 kanji or so, I gave up learning the English meaning for the kanji, under recommendation from my wife (native Japanese, doesn’t speak English at all. she doesn’t know the “meanings” for most kanji either) and started only learning the readings and words for the kanji. it helps build relations with the actual kanji and not just trying to figure out the English meaning for words.

Take 映画 as an example (since someone else also used it as an example) if you know it’s English meaning is “movie” then turn around and see a kanji like 画面 you can see it has something in relation to movies as they share a kanji. Doesn’t matter if you can’t piece it together from there, you can just type in 映画 delete the 映 and just leave in 画, on places like jisho or renshuu, you can just search for words using that kanji to find it’s friend, or if you know 面談 or something else, you can fill in that second kanji. Apparently this strategy is quite popular with Japanese folk when they don’t recognize a kanji or don’t know the reading for a kanji.

Working like this has saved quite a bit of time when I dedicate time to studying kanji (Which is admittedly rather rare these days, I normally just read books for any kanji practice I need and learn the vocab instead.) mostly saving the headache of trying to remember why kanji like 約 means promise, shrink, or approximately. just that 約束 is promise 約数 is division (math) and 契約書 is contract. it just saves more time to study actual vocabulary than studying kanji.

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I got it froma google images search as I actually couldn’t find the perfect example in Japanese. If you know Chinese or have a solid enough level in Japanese then there are a fair number of books like this out there, though!

How has this been going? Have you stuck with it?

I never SRSed kanji like this however I did used to do a similar thing of checking etymologies and word lists for kanji that I struggled with and found it really helpful. Kanji are used to make words so, in my opinion, focusing on the actual usage in context will always make them stick better.

I personally agree with your wife! I never did any study of just readings for kanji, only words, so how’s that been going?

How bad is your handwriting?

One fairly common post I see online from people learning Japanese is “How good is my handwriting?”, and then a picture of some carefully copied kanji characters.

One thing that very often comes up in that sort of thread is stroke order. Stroke order certainly is important and interesting(?). However, I want to discuss something different today. I want to discuss balance.

Balance and Blank Space

Forgetting slightly wonky stroke order or the occasional unthinkingly copied computer font (which perhaps I will discuss a different time), the largest culprit for “non-native” looking handwriting is balance, size, and use of blank space.

Now, don’t get me wrong, most natives have pretty shoddy handwriting. Not everyone in Japan is a 書道 (しょどう・calligraphy) master, but natives will write in such a way that the size, shape, and spacing of characters are (somewhat) clearly delineable. Meaning, native handwriting at least follows the logic of how characters are meant to look, even if they don’t always live up to the ideal. A learner’s messy handwriting and a native’s messy handwriting can be quite different.

Below is a very typical way that spacing is shown/taught to students taking 書道 classes in school, sourced from this blog:

The main thing I want to focus on here is the little circles with the lines through them. This negative space, which is sometimes called 間 (ま) in the context of Japanese aesthetics, is very important. In the most practical terms, it can help to imagine that you are drawing the lines around the negative space. So rather than drawing the lines you are actually demarcating the negative space, with the space giving form to the lines just as much as the lines give form to the space.

This can also be called 余白 (よはく・white space/margin). Below is another typical example from this blog:

(Keep in mind that the above examples are ideal examples in calligraphy, not how typical handwriting would look)

Things Fall Apart (ゲシュタルト崩壊)

Now the previous section may have felt obvious. It is pretty clear that if the lines or parts of a character are drawn unevenly then they will look off. This brings me to what I think the main culprit of “non-native” looking handwriting is: poor balance, size, and use of blank space at a sentence level.

Whilst it can be hard to get to grips with characters at an individual level, it is when they are all thrown together in a sentence that the issues become clearer. The most basic issue is having characters being too bunched up or too spread apart. Below is an example from this blog:

The far left sentence is too spread out and the central one is too bunched up.

Which leads us to ゲシュタルト崩壊 (げしゅたるとほうかい). This is ‘Gestaltzerfall’ in German or ‘Gestalt (shape) decomposition’ in English. In general, this term refers to when one fails to recognise a whole as you can only see it as its constituent parts. A fairly similar phenomenon is ‘semantic satiation’, where seeing or hearing the same word repeatedly makes it lose its meaning.

In relation to kanji, ゲシュタルト崩壊 refers to not being able to see a kanji as a “whole” and mistaking it for its parts. This happens especially when the balance of kanji both individually and then next to each other are off, so your brain can’t clearly delineate what is meant to be a single kanji or not.

Below I’ve scribbled a couple of examples (in my own bad handwriting but with some deliberate spacing issues) which show this point. First, we have a person’s name, which I have written with exaggeratedly poor spacing:

Can you read it? It doesn’t say 木木寸, if that helps.

It actually says...

木村 (きむら) - I had a student with this name once I swear he wrote it exactly like this, which made me scratch my head the first time I saw it.

Second, we have a normal word which is written a bit more fairly.

It kinda looks like 言式馬㑒 but…

It says...

試験 (しけん)


So What’s the Point?

It is very common for people to drill only individual kanji or, perhaps, words when learning to handwrite Japanese. Although stroke order is important, it may be more useful to focus on balance and spacing, not only at an individual kanji level but a whole word and sentence level. Stroke order is not so complex but balance is pretty tough to get right, even for some natives. As a tip, using grid paper or 原稿用紙 (げんこうようし・Japanese gridded writing paper) will help.

My handwriting is bad in English and Japanese so I think I’m a lost cause in any language :sweat_smile:

My English handwriting for reference (written as I'd write notes for myself)

But I wonder if any of you guys find keeping a good balance difficult when writing kanji? Is your native language handwriting better than Japanese? Or even the other way round?

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it’s helping me filter through words quite a bit faster. I’ll read a word because i know the reading and from there I can ask what it means. or at least for jisho type in the kanji readings individually. it does definitely speed things up, and once you got a good base of kanji the rest are rare enough that they may only be used in a few words total.

There are actually some good sites for that:
https://zi.tools/zi/下
Or

Unfortunately no, or maybe not so unfortunately. Everything was great, recall, understanding, but it is was very tiering to create those anki cards, then do, it becomes routine and brain switches of and wants something new.

But what has left is that I look up kanjis etymology (30 seconds) and a lot of the words with it. If I do so, the next time I encounter that kanji, info about it kind of redownloads when I start doing that same process for the next time + it adds context in which I’ve met it the last time (usually I wouldn’t get this because lookups were word based and very surface level, so I would forget kanji in word instantly)

I basically don’t need anki because I usually remember kanji after doing this process just a few times