A Beginner Thinks Through 良い/いい

Japanese
#1

I would like to “think out loud” in response to an extremely helpful reply in this thread from the dependable and encouraging @Pablunpro. As a serious learner, I look up to the seriousness with which they have obviously been learning themselves, as well as the seriousness with which they help people. ありがとございます。

I am replying in a new topic and not a reply because I think a lot of other beginners will be helped by a condensed presentation of the information in the resources Pablunpro recommended me. For those who watch the original video, please consider supporting Kaname Naito先生 on Patreon. His content is excellent.

I refreshed myself on the 良い lesson on Bunpro and watched the video. Subbed to that channel by the way; awesome stuff.

  • When conjugating 良い it is better to think of いい as the abnormal form instead of those that begin with よい. The よい-forms seem logical now that I have seen them all again.

  • A basic connotation of いいです is sexual. (Whoops. :sweat_smile:) The following situations permit use of いいです because the context is clear that the meaning is not that kind of “good.”

  1. When something is good because it is useful.
  2. When speaking about someone’s clothes or hair.

We can also use いいです naturally in the following ways:

  • Additionally, いいです is usually paired with an adjective, especially すごく, to create すごくいいです.
  • Using a completely different adjective like 素晴らしい reduces the chance to be misunderstood/sound werid.
  • Using いい as a noun modifier (phrase pattern [いい」＋「noun」) such as すごくいい映画です。
  • Use a sentence-ending particle like よ and ね. よ for new information or disagreement, and ね for information that the listener likely already is aware of.
  • Use it with 何々が. (I had never heard this word before, totally awesome to know.) So, 田中さんは性格がいいです。(Am I understanding this correctly? The が-marked word makes this sound natural, yes?)
  • Recommending something to someone. Make sure you use すごくいいよ or すごくいいですよ to end the sentence.
  • Conversely, asking for a recommendation with the simple, いいですか? For example, どこがいいですか？when asking for a great place to visit.
  • いいです as “no thanks,” such as at a コンビニ.
  • Conversely, as “okay,” with よ.

There are apparently even more usages, but, whoa. There are also some idioms:

  • ちょっといいですか？ “Are you busy right now?”

That seems to cover the info in the video. Those who read this post, please see @Pablunpro’s original post linked at the top, watch the Kaname Naito video, and feel free to add more details or correct me where I was unclear.

頑張って！

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#2

I would like to add some translations that might make more sense from english in two places:

I think this could be translated more as “I’m ok”/“I’m good(thanks)” which is still natural english but with a closer nuance

Instead of asking if someones busy, the nuance of this is more “Is it ok if I talk to you for a bit” or “Do you have some time” or “can I take up some time”, that kind of thing. The english that makes the most sense to use in day to day life is “are you busy” but sometimes its better to think of the unnatural english to understand the meaning of the Japanese.
I’m just guessing here but I think maybe this is shortened from ちょっと話してもいいですか or ちょっと喋ってもいいですか？

I hope this makes sense, feel free to correct me^^

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#3

I never thought about something like this to such detail, i think. By “naturally” do you mean “native-sounding” (sentences that a native would actually think and say) or “grammatically accurate”?

In the second section, with the exception of the points after “Recommending something to someone” (that are mostly “specific” to いい), every point can be applied with any other い adjective. For example すごく美味しい、美味しいごはん、すしが美味しいよ.

I don’t know if they will always be “native-sounding” (probably not), but they will be “grammatically accurate”. So you don’t have to worry about doing this study to every い adjective.

I don’t know what you mean by “natural”, but it’s grammatically correct. が marks the subject of a sentence, and いい here is a description of the sentence subject. In a rough literal translation this means: “About Tanaka-san, (his) personality, good is”.

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#4

Sometimes I give up the pretense of sounding natural and always say よい

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#5

Check out the original video; I use natural as the opposite sense of the way he uses “weird.”

As a further aside, I don’t think “native-sounding” and “grammatically accurate” need to come apart. I am fairly convinced by the famous dictum by Ludwig Wittgenstein: “Don’t ask for meaning, ask for use!”

As for your points, they are all great! Thanks for the reply.

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#6

Thank you! I would say that in both cases I would agree with you. :slight_smile:

#7

Most of the time I come across いい is in the context of casual requests with the meaning more like ‘it’s okay’ (it’s good?) てもいい、なくてもいい

#8

I think you mean “native-sounding” then.

I think is important to make a distinction. The phrases he says are weird like 田中さんの動画はいいです are certainly grammatical, but the meaning/nuance is different, so it’s not a phrase an actual native would use in that situation. Also, Ludwig Wittgenstein quote is in favor of prioritizing usage (native-sounding) over meaning (etimology); it doesn’t seem to have an opinion on grammar vs usage. :thinking:

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#9

I have really no issues with the word ‘natural’ that so many postmodern linguists seem to balk at. That’s a philosophical assumption that I think we may not share. I also find it strange that you say the phrases a native speaker is using to teach non-natives are, in fact, “unnatural” or “non-native sounding” or whatever you like. I do appreciate your engagement but I struggle to follow the need to dissect “natural” from “native sounding” except as some becoming-over-and-against-being inheritance from contemporary philosophical linguistics. Your additional information in your post above is still helpful, if at least to see a different perspective from Kaname Naito, so I am grateful for your replies.

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#10

I’m sorry if I said something in a unclear way, but you’re probably reading too much into what I said. I’m no philosopher and really I don’t understand the technical jargon you used, I just wanted to be on the same page with you, to avoid misunderstandings.

I repeated the very first sentence Kaname Naito used, and he said the phrase is weird. I believe him, I’m not a native, he is.

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#11

Yes, that is possible. Apologies!

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#12

This is a good summary although I’d suggest not trying to learn every single usage of a word when you learn it, especially a word as common and broad as いい, and instead just understand the usage in the context where you came across it. Especially if you want to be Wittgensteinian about it :wink:

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#13

Heh. Yeah, had no intentions of that. I use these little notebook sheets as a way to “digest” the information once and then move on. Not making any more Anki cards. :innocent:

#14

Yeah for me this is just an extension of the usual pattern of using いい to ask for authorization, as explained in this point: てもいい (日本語能力試験 N5) | Bunpro – 日本語の文法解説

I’d parse it as something like ちょっと【話をしても】いいですか？ (can we talk for a bit?) or something to that effect.

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