A few confusing terms (にしても, ずつ...)

Japanese
#1

I am almost done with N2 and have widely found Bunpro to be extremely helpful, however there are a few terms that I am still not fully understanding the correct way to think about them.

にしても vs としても
ずつ vs 当たり

  1. にしても vs としても

When it comes to this term its stated in the lesson that " としても is used to present a hypothetical situation (even if we assume…), however にしても is used to present a factual/nearly factual situation (even considering that A is a fact…)."
But I am failing to see how that applies to a sentence like " パーティーに行いくにしても、私わたしはシャイだからいつも一人ひとりで飲のんでいる" How is a sentence like this presenting a factual or nearly factual situation for the A portion and not a hypothetical one like としても is for? How can a future event be a fact and not hypothetical?

I am sure I am just misunderstanding the core of this concept, so I’d appreciate any help at distinguishing what at their core makes these sort of sentences need to be にしても vs としても. How are both of these sentences not presenting a hypothetical?

ジュースがいっぱいの樽たるを頼たのむにしても 、まだ足たりないと思おもいます。

たとえ仕事しごとが簡単かんたんだとしても、仕事しごとは丁寧ていねいにやるべきだ

  1. ずつ vs 当たり

This one I am completely lost on as well, it seems to commonly be discussed as ずつ = each and あたり= per…however I can’t figure out how those help separate them.
It seems that ずつ is used more for people and あたり is used more for prices of items, but I haven’t been able to figure out get to the core of why that pattern is occurring.

One of the explanations within the ずつ grammar point says you can try and think of it as “allotment” which I think has helped a bit, as many of them make a bit more sense thinking of あたり as per, and ずつ as an allotment of A. But I still find certain sentences like " あの土地とちの一平米いちへいべい当あたり の価格かかくが知しりたい" Why can this not be ずつ? Wouldn’t you just be saying you want to know the price of each allotment of land?

If you can answer any of my specific questions or discuss my example sentences that would be greatly appreciated, but even if you just have general advice on the grammar structures that would also be helpful.

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#2

Starting with the easier one:

ずつ has a core meaning of whatever is being counted as being equally divided. This could mean “each” or “every” or “apiece” or whatever depending on context.

当たり means “per”. The most common place I see it in real life is on food/drink packaging for “per serving” or “per bottle” etc. Here is an example from a bottle of tea:
image

So in the sentence あの土地とちの一平米いちへいべい当あたり の価格かかくが知しりたい the use of 当たり is pretty clear without explanation, I hope. With ずつ it sounds like you want to know the price per square metre (for each and every square metre one by one). I am actually not sure if it sounds that bad but I am pretty sure this is why it is wrong.

Okay now the more complicated one:

There are many many cases when either としても or にしても can be used and if you ask a native they will sometimes even say they are interchangeable until you bring up a counter-example. The difference lies in the fact that にしても has to be something actually possible or that might actually happen. Conversely, としても can be used for something that would never be true.

In terms of how to think of this grammatically, consider just the normal use of にする (to decide, to be set on doing something, do for some reason or purpose etc etc). Then changing this to にしても adds the “even” nuance of も. So “even if we do…” or “even if we decide to do…” or whatever would be a more literal understanding of the phrase. You can see why this would need to be a more realistic or possible situation as you can’t decide to do something impossible (well, you can but you won’t actually be able to do it so it will sound weird). としても works in a similar way but just extending the logic from とする.

Another way to think about this from a grammatical angle, which comes from this wonderful stackexchange post, is as such:

Comparing the definitions of に and と shows that they can both be used to refer to the result（結果） of something. に shows the result of becoming (dynamic) and と shows the result of being (stative).

According to the 大辞林, the に in にしても is a form of the word なり which is a contraction of にあり and is related to なる.

The と in としても is a form of the word たり which is a contraction of てあり, showing completed action and is related to である.

にしても ⇒ になるとしても ⇒ になっても
としても ⇒ であるとしても ⇒ であっても

にしても implies “even when” something becomes the case

としても implies “even if” something is the case or “even as”, “even for”.

Please read that full post as it is what got me to understand this difference to begin with.

So it depends what you think counts as a “hypothetical”. You can maybe kinda think of にしても as like “allowing for the fact that that will/might happen then…”. It can be used as a way to talk about some possible event. With としても it is more like “if that were to be then…”. It can be used for talking about something that is even impossible. I think don’t get bogged down by the word “hypothetical” here.

These are tough grammar points (add としたら and となると into the mix as well to really get your grammatical mind working…) but just keeping in mind that there is some difference and paying attention when they come up when reading/listening and the difference should hopefully become clear eventually. I hope this post helped anyway.

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#3

Hey, thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my post, I really appreciate it.

When it comes to ずつ and your explanation, it sort of sounds like ずつ points at the preceding thing, whereas あたり points at the thing that comes after. As in, 10人ずつ is saying ten people per, an allotment of ten people. But with 当たり it’s often used with X 当たり __ Yen price. So it’s really incomplete without the back half, where ずつ can be said in times where there is no B section stated explicitly like 少しずつ?

Maybe I am still offbase but I guess im saying.
ずつ is pointing left saying X <—ずつ This is the allotment amount
But 当たり is more like "One of X = Y), X 当たり Y which is often used for prices of items or nutritional facts as you mentioned. Does this sound right to you?

I think your explanation is quite good and has helped me with most of the sentences I am looking at. The only ones I still am not 100% sure of are ones along the lines of what I provided like " あの土地とちの一平米いちへいべい当あたり の価格かかくが知しりたい" Where I fail to see what the difference is between saying “I want to know the price per one square meter” or saying “For each (allotment) or one square meter, I want to know the price” They seem nearly identical to me in meaning, however it may be the case of trying to force Japanese into English and that’s why its not becoming clear.

For にしても I found your explanation to be extremely helpful and pretty much clears up all of the hypothetical issues I was having with the terms. I also think getting back to the core with に vs と and にする is valuable advice.

Adding onto to that though, I find one more use in comparison to this to be a bit odd, take ともちゃんは女おんなの子こにしても 、女おんならしい行動こうどうはしないよ I find this to be rather odd, considering it is not presenting (seemingly) something that is a judgement or hypothetical at all in the A portion, its just a plainly clear fact and its a specific person as well unlike something like 誰にしても or 独身にしても where we are “Taking” some hypothetical person or stat, so how or why is it the idea of Tomo being a girl presented as a hypothetical at all?

Maybe I am over thinking it, as trying to play it out in English as well, I suppose if we made a situation like some young kids are playing soccer they could say “So what? Even if Tomo is a girl, she plays well!” and in that case we also use the seemingly hypothetical phrase like that, but “So what? Even though Tomo’s a girl, she plays well!” seems more “correct”. Reading through the examples in ても and にしても it seems 9 out of 10 times it is using a “even if” type meaning more than the “even though” meaning.

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#4

One key difference between にしては and にしても is that the former is not used to talk about yourself. That piece of information may or may not be helpful, but I thought I’d mention it.

Personally, I think にしては is better translated as “Considering” and にしても as “Even if”. Obviously these translations don’t work all the time, but I think they give you a better idea of what the grammar means. I feel that limiting the translations of a grammar point to one or two very distinct ones is more helpful than when you use the similar translations. It’s just more confusing when the translations overlap, IMO, so I try to find one or two that distinguishes and better describes the meaning. These are the ones I found to be more helpful.

The same principle applies to ずつ and 当たり, which I think of as “a (quantity) at a time” and “per” respectively. Maybe thinking of it this way will help you.

Take care!

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#5

Hi,

I was studying precisely the grammar point on 当たり and found these example sentences:

  • 一人当たり三個ずつパンを配ります.
  • 車一台当たり4人ずつ乗っていきましょう.

I just thought I’d share.

May you have a Merry Christmas.

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