Accurate translations vs. context based translations

You said it yourself! You don’t enjoy anime - and this is where pedagogy gets so interesting! Everyone’s learning styles, goals, hopes, dreams, likes, dislikes heavily influence what sticks and what doesn’t. What’s useful and what isn’t!

I want to be able to translate Japanese and communicate that in English in a way where the context isn’t lost or is a reasonable facsimile! Bunpro works well for me in that regard. This doesn’t diminish your desire for a more literal breakdown of sentences, though!

https://ichi.moe/ is pretty good if you need to break up the sentence a bit more, but I don’t have a great tool to suggest for more literal translations.

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I feel like for me, it depends on the situation. I personally really enjoy seeing less literal translations, because it helps me connect the dots between how I could express myself in Japanese in a way that is similar to how I would say something in English. Or, if translations are too literal (and therefore unnatural/robotic sounding) it can be difficult to imagine how I would use that grammar in a real-life situation.

However, I do see the value in literal translations when it comes to comparing similar grammar/vocabulary terms, where translating it literally may better showcase small nuances.

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You shouldn’t think of it as Japanese that you have to translate into English the most literal way, you should ultimately end up thinking of it as Japanese that you read in Japanese, and get away from English. I’ve recently read a very intersting post regarding this on the WaniKani forums. The post doesn’t adress excactly the same, but it mentions that “in order to be able to read, write, listen or speak reasonably smoothly, you need your brain to be working purely in Japanese”, and in my opinion, this applies to English → Japanese (or production) as well as to Japanese → English (or consuming Japanese).

Of course, in the beginning, you’ll have to use English to be able to understand any Japanese, but based on that post, I don’t think you should try to make translations as literal as possible. In my (very little) experience, Japanese is a very context based language, which is one of the reasons why you should be careful when trusting a translator when you use Japanese (it you really, really need a translator for some reason, though, I highly recommend DeepL)

Since I’m rather new to the language (started three months ago), it might be better to just ignore my post haha, but I thought I’d drop my thoughts here as well.

(Edit: Just realised that I basically didn’t adress the actual topic lol, I guess I just started smashing my keyboard after reading the literal translations :rofl:)

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While I do occasionally use DeepL, it sometimes suffers from translations that are more liberal, and thus not really accurate. People frequently diss it , but most times I get better translations from Google, believe it or not.

For this reason, I would recommend using both (DeepL and Google Translate) to compare and see which one gives the best translation. Their accuracy varies, so it’s good to use both, IME.

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DeepL mainly seems like a better translator than others because it’s pretty good at producing translations that sound good - what it tends to do for that is to just more or less make stuff up to fill blanks. Google Translate’s result will more sound like quite a mess at times, but personally I prefer that because it doesn’t even give the illusion of being a good translation. Though either can be helpful, of course, but should always be taken with a grain of salt.

As for the actual topic - I’d favour more literal translations as well. Most of the time I make mistakes, they’re of the “this is correct, but we’re looking for something else”-type. It’s not that I don’t know the point that’s asked for in those cases, I would perfectly understand it in the wild, it’s just that I don’t have the connection between Bunpro’s translation the way it’s presented and that exact point in my mind. Especially given that there is no context for the sentence either way, I think a more literal translation could help more to produce the specific point Bunpro is asking for in that review.

I think overall it’s a matter of personal preference which type of translation someone finds more helpful to properly work with, and I don’t think any is generally better than the other.

If we’d disregard the amount of work that’d go into it, from a user’s perspective, I think the most ideal would be to offer both options and let users decide which to use (A, B or both) so that everyone can get the best learning experience for them specifically in that regard. Though with how many sentences there are as well as it being a new feature, as much as I’d prefer more literal translations (even if they’d sound awkward or unnatural in English), I don’t really think it has a high priority or anything.

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I’ve had this issue with Bunpro for a while now and it actually really bugs me sometimes. I’ve reported some sentences over this. A lot of the times the translations will be sentences that would be absolutely correct if you were to find them translated from a novel, but here we’re trying to learn how the grammar works. I’ve seen some English either completely omits some ideas that exists in the Japanese sentence and some where the English includes grammar points/nuance that doesn’t exist in the Japanese.

I like the way that Satori Reader does things much more. If the contextual translation doesn’t capture the full “meaning” of a sentence then they include that more literal translation along with it.

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FWIW I think BunPro already has literal translations in some of those yellow correction hints. Of the style “your answer would work, but think more about a different point with this literal meaning”. Pretty useful, right?

Reading too many unnatural English sentences during reviews would probably just make your head hurt more, and it’s not clear if it would help to understand and recall Japanese better or not.

As for ambiguity, I think it would be helpful for each question to have a specific situation in mind. For example “A boss is telling an employee to take it easy today”. Even if the situation is not specifically stated, and Japanese sounds more vague/flexible than English, it’s all good as long as both sentences are consistent with that situation.

The questions that bug me are the ones where even after re-reading both JP and EN, I still have to scratch my head “when and why would anyone say this?”

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I don’t think anyone here is suggesting having unnatural translations, at least that’s not what I’m advocating. You can still have completely natural English translations that still capture the meaning of the Japanese. In the cases where a nuance doesn’t sound natural in English, BunPro could add them in parentheses, like they do with 「ておく」 for example, where the “in preparation” nuance is sometimes put in parentheses.

The problem, in my opinion, are those English translations that use English sayings that, while they capture the spirit of what the Japanese is saying, are still inaccurate. However, I’ve seen translations where there’s extra information not mentioned in the Japanese (perhaps to add context), as was mentioned. These are approximations, not actual translations, which are fine in consumable media, but I don’t think it should be the case in a platform where you’re learning a language.

As I said before, having more literal translations not only will make the meaning of the grammar being studied easier to grasp, but it should also minimize confusion (especially for people who are not native level English speakers). It also has the added benefit of shifting your mindset into a Japanese one, without having to learn concepts strictly in Japanese, which I don’t think is a great idea (at least not at first, unless you’re a baby who is yet to acquire concepts in any language).

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Except から doesn’t necessarily translate straight to “because” and is often used for emphasis or implication - in a sentence devoid of context, this could mean that someone is answering a “why” question, but it could also mean that they’re trying to be heard by the other person in the conversation that it really is ok if it’s not done by tomorrow - or it could be implying a litany of other things, e.g. “so you can stop working for right now,” “so you don’t need to be so hard on yourself” etc. By forcing a “because” into this sentence, you close out those other possibilities, thus making the translation ultimately less accurate.

Literal translation is a fake concept anyway because someone had to interpret the Japanese and how it’s used, and put it into whatever dictionary we’re referring to, we’re just trusting their interpretation over anyone else’s - but Bunpro’s translations are already pretty direct, regularly to the point of the English sentence being considerably more awkward than the source Japanese. Early on, this was somewhat confusing for me because it made me question whether the provided Japanese was that stilted, but I acknowledged that certain learners benefited from this style and let it be. Nowadays, I can recognize all that just fine myself, so I don’t really care very much, but saying that Bunpro isn’t literal enough is sort of a confusing statement for me imo. Maybe that’s just because I’m used to it and used to translating things out of Japanese using context

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I think you mean something more like “This doesn’t need to be done by tomorrow,” or “It’s fine even if this isn’t finished by tomorrow,” rather than what you wrote, but ultimately the から is doing some of the lifting that turns this sentence into a “You don’t need to finish this by tomorrow (so go home and get some rest)” - this sort of nuance, easy to miss at first, is why Bunpro adds that extra bit of flavor to some of these translations. I could see value in the team going through and explaining choices like this within the examples themselves, but that also sounds like an immensely time-consuming task. Ultimately, the thing is that this sentence in Japanese has context we’re not fully privy to - so it makes sense that the English translation carries on from that.

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I find literal translations to be more useful for “tinkering”. As in, when I really want to pry a grammar point open and don’t care about the meaning of the sentence but rather the construction and its English analogues.

Typically, this means I learn next to nothing about its functional usage in natural situations.

What the context aware translations help you with is getting you into the metal model of expressing your base language sentiments within a new framework of verbal articulation and mental concepts.

これは明日までに終わらなくてもいいから

Does not express the following English sentiment

Because it’s fine if this does not get done by tomorrow

It expresses the following:

No worries if it’s not done by tomorrow

When trying to convey the meaning above no-one “thinks” in the former. And we use language to express what we think.

In fact, my dearest ambition is to stop thinking of から as “because” even if that’s its closest English analogue used in translation. Instead I want to think of it as “marker of provenance”, but in a wibbly wobbly, feely kind of way. This is not something I can achieve if I primarily have literal translations rattling about in my brain.

What we all want to be able to do is take the latter sentiment and express it in Japanese. Therefore in our minds we need to associate all the nuance of the English sentiment with the construction of the Japanese.

That model needs to be second nature, there can’t be an additional mapping along the way; we’ll never achieve the goal if there is a “transliteration layer” in between or if we only have a mapping to the transliteration.

To put it another likely even more convoluted way,

Knowing that this is a 3 x 5 brick does not let you express that you want to build a cockpit

The magic, is knowing that a cockpit can be built from a 3 x 5 brick and that lets you make it reality.

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I agree.

I simply translated that sentence into one of the interpretations you just gave in the above paragraph. It would be impossible for me to give an actual accurate translation when there’s no context.

Sure, there are concepts in Japanese that don’t exist in English, or perhaps even in other languages. However, the vast majority of them do exist in English, so I don’t find it far fetched to trust the “official” interpretations given to us by the BunPro team, so I think is hyperbole to call it “fake concepts”.

Also, I do consult other sources when I’m not grasping the nuance, or I need clarification of a grammar point, so I don’t just rely on BunPro in order to understand something.

I give examples of what I mean here (in case you missed it): Accurate translations vs. context based translations - #7 by Jose7822

These are just basic examples, but I run into them almost daily, especially with vocabulary sentences (which to be fair could be mistakes, some of which I have reported to the team). This is not the first thread bringing up issues with translations, btw. There have been a few others I’ve seen, and they all boil down to the same issue as pointed out in this thread.

I can see the issue with this specifically and I’ve also occasionally gotten held up by this type of problem (wondering, “what exactly do they want here?”) but I would say this is less an issue of the translation itself and more just an issue of the hints and/or instruction maybe not covering all the bases they could - I think inviting the user to think outside the box of small terms they are given is ultimately necessary to helping them understand the breadth and nuance of a specific term

That’s not really my point. Ultimately, “literal” translation is an arbitrary idea - you are counting on someone else’s - or multiple people’s - previously-made interpretations to guide yours. If they did not use someone else’s previously-made interpretation, then they would have had to make up their own interpretation themselves. Bunpro’s interpretations are just that - interpretations. They can be valuable anchoring points for learners, and largely do the job in translating from Japanese to English, but they are not necessarily the most accurate or natural or “literal” way to express a given thought.

I rest my case.

Another example from today:

Sure, it could rephrased that way, but what’s actually being said is:

“My mother is a person who extremely values formality.”

OR

“My mother is a person who highly values formality.”

There are other ways this could be translated, which would still be more accurate than the provided translation. The point is that some BunPro’s translations end up being more like reinterpretations of the Japanese, rather than accurate translations, the latter being what I think to be more suitable in a learning platform.

I run into these types of interpretations almost daily, though some are simple typos (which I try my best to report).

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You will definitely find a lot looser translations in vocab than you will in grammar, although there still are some loose translations in grammar.

The reason for this is that the vocab translations to English are actually done via ChatGPT 4, and are then all checked by us to make sure they include the correct target word and aren’t outright incorrect. The main reason for this is time. Writing the sentences in Japanese is basically a fulltime job for one of our staff members (Haruna), and writing word for word accurate translations for them would basically be another fulltime job for one of our English native speakers if we were to go down that path. Unfortuantely we just don’t have the manpower at this present moment to do that.

If you ever feel that any of the vocab sentences are completely incorrect though, feel free to report them with your suggestion! 9 times out of 10 we will change them unless there is some specific reason for keeping it as is.

We will probably end up redoing the translations at some point in the future as LLM’s get better and better at translating and following instrutions closely. We always ask for them to include all relevant vocab items in the translations, but results vary, which is why we check them ourselves too.

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I kinda figured, given the sheer amount of sentences you guys have, especially for vocabulary as you said, that translations were being somewhat automated. Same with audio, which sometimes have incorrect pronunciations of select words.

I’ll keep reporting the ones I find and give my suggestions. Again, they’re not terrible by any means, but they do miss nuances that in my opinion should be expressed in the English.

Thanks for your reply, and for all the hard work. I promise you that as much as I’m complaining about some of these translations, I still really enjoy studying with BunPro. I just want it to be perfect :+1:.

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Cause it sounds kinda silly if you translate it literally.

I’ve had so many students come to me and complain about “inaccurate” translations once they get to upper beginner levels. They eventually grow out of it though.

Like Sidgr said, when you stop relying on English sentences less, that aspect matters less.

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I get what you trying to say but I don’t think this is the way to Frame it.

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How do Japanese people interpret it on a natural level? Think about how you interact with sentences in your first language. If someone said, “As for this project, it doesn’t have to be finished by tomorrow, okay?” Would you process it as, “this project doesn’t need to be finished by tomorrow” or would you process it as “AS FOR THIS PROJECT” full stop, “IT DOESN"T NEED TO BE FINISHED BY TOMORROW” full stop, “OKAY?” full stop.?

I don’t think your mind would process the sentence like that, as individual components being given equal weight, it would just process all the parts as one whole and simplify. I know it’s weird to think about how your brain processes its own native language, and you’ll be tempted to say, “nuh-uh” my brain would treat it as peace-meal pieces like that, but come-on and be honest now.

I’ve personally always found people advocating for transliteral translations weird outside of any context other than of a sentence break down. But breaking down a sentence for understanding, isn’t what Bunpro is doing. They are giving a translation, and in all honesty, if you had read that sentence in a work email, you would have processed it exactly as they translated it.

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