Advice for learning kanji?

My advice would be - don’t use RTK. :sweat_smile:

I started out learning kanji with RTK. I bought into the basic premise of learning to write first - and within 6 months I had learned over a 1,000 kanji - printing them and one meaning keyword. Then I burned out.

A major problem with the approach, as I see it, is that it frontloads the process with learning meaning and printing them. It leaves a major stumbling point for later: the sounds.

First of all, climbing “the whole mountain” before you get to the sounds can be terribly frustrating at some point because it’s easy to lose sight of the goal - learning Japanese, not kanji.

Then, the topic of sounds is almost bigger than the kanji themselves and having looked at RTK2 I think it’s didactically horrible. The further you get in the RTK course, the lazier it gets, leaving all the work to you and merely providing structure. It gets so sparse, it’s - to me - not really helpful.

Coming up with mnemonics of your own can be a good way to internalize them, but once you are challenged to do that for 80% or more of them (because the course no longer does), you have a lot of work cut out to you. That nobody (slight hyperbole) likes to do that is clear from the many Anki decks out there doing it for you.

Next thing: There are several Anki decks out there for RTK and they save you a lot of time and work. But there is time and time again stuff in them that you wish you wouldn’t have exposed your brain to. Same goes for Kanji Damage… If the mnemonic sticks, all the worse. You’re going to look at the basic kanji a lot in the future, so I don’t want bad associations I need to “unlearn” later…

After “learning” to write 1,000 kanji and associate meaning from RTK + Anki, I changed to Wanikani. It took a while until I met some of them again. Retention of kanji was negligible! I had written some of them a hundred times, I did an hour of kanji writing each day towards the end, and yet when I encountered them again after stopping, I more often than not learned them anew.

Also, some 800 or so in, I couldn’t shake the feeling (with RTK), that I’m not learning Japanese. I could “meaning-read” parts of sentences, but that quickly lost its shine as without being able to connect it to sounds and vocab, it does surprisingly little (at least for me) for learning to understand the language unless you sit through all of it. That’s what I meant when I said I “burned out” on it - I was seriously questioning my choices and if I felt I was making progress towards my actual goal.

Having said all that, I’m not entirely sure about it, but I think RTK2 misses out on Kei-Sei (semantic-phonetic grouping) of kanji. The majority of kanji, some say numbers like 68%, are not made up so that they mirror meaning but they mirror sound (at least more than meaning). A kanji belonging to the Kei Sei group will be composed of at least two more primitive kanji (or their simplified radical form). One will imply a broad category of meaning (like for example finger having to do with actions done with the hands) and another will be there not for its meaning, but for its sound.

Apparently this thing is even more common and evident in Chinese, but Japanese is a Troy of past languages (layer upon layer) - retaining and grouping sounds from the original Japanese language and multiple dominant Chinese dialects (Japanese-pronounced), so a fair share of Kei Sei have been overwritten or sound-shifted over time. Still, Kei Sei is a fantastic tool for looking at whole groups of kanji and retaining their sounds.

Having said that, Wanikani has extension scripts (by users) that tap into a big DB of Kei Sei goodness that I haven’t found elsewhere and that I find vital for retaining sounds easily. Any resource for learning Japanese should as well, unless you want to needlessly tie sounds to kanji over and over again.

I’m a fan of Wanikani besides its flaws. If you don’t mind going by their pace and order, it’s a great tool. They put a lot of work into their mnemonics, and users added the rest with scripts.

I find that with Wanikani I learned a lot of basic vocab that I retain well. For any kanji I can typically immediately recall its most common sound, whether on or kun and/or one basic meaning, and for many all of that or even rare meanings. I found this much more useful than being able to print them. And considerably less time-consuming!!

I think the retention is higher with any course teaching kanji in context with sounds as your brain ties to them multiple times. Kanji with kun sound. Kanji meaning with mnemonic to help you along. Kanji with on sound. Kanji with another on sound. Vocab 1 using kanji this way, vocab 2 using kanji that way. You will always retain some of that in the least and can work your way back to that.

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Thanks for your reply. I started Wanikani yesterday, and my immediate impression was that it was easier to use and probably more efficient than RTK. I’ll keep those Kei Sei extension scripts in mind. I might experiment with some of the other methods that users have posted here. On the topic of learning vocabulary with sounds, I delayed learning kanji for so long partially because I wanted to learn the vocabulary by sound alone rather than by seeing the kanji. Also due to the pacing/waiting on Wanikani, I started on N2 grammar here :stuck_out_tongue:

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I think knowing a some vocabulary by sound is massively helpful with kanji. Especially if you start with those kanji that you already know the words for, and expand your language net from there.

By the net I mean, for example, let’s say you know that えいが is the word for movie. So now you already know onyomi for both kanji of 映画, and can learn them and associate them with “ah, that’s the first/second one in eiga”. Which opens the way to more easily remember 映像, 反映, 画面, 漫画, and in turn their other kanji, etc. I’m thinking of it as “JPDB approach”, although there might be other or better tools to direct it.

Of course if you choose the approach of learning in a predetermined order (RTK or WK), it might not help that much, but eventually those words you already know will come up.

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I am one of the Wanikani cult - took me 368 days to finish (it was intense though, doing reviews from early morning to late evening to keep the process going). I found it a wonderfull method.

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I’m a big advocate of just learning vocabulary and let the kanji absorb passively. Also it’s a great idea to understand what’s possible with onyomi and kunyomi so you’re not always starting from zero. Compounds are pretty much always onyomi so when you know what to expect it gets pretty easy to guess.

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I found this thread really helpful that discussed learning kanji: I studied kanji for 2 (and a bit) hours every single day for two years

It’s a sequel to a previous thread which was also worth reading (linked in the original post)

I’ve been following the method discussed in these threads, along with my kids. It’s been really good and helpful (thanks @Asher!)

I’ve already been beefing up and adding features to the deck shared in that thread, adding content from other popular kanji decks, and it’s been a good ride so far.

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For there reason I came up with idea of just learning all radicals and then adding all components and kanji’s names to deck, and learning them which card (so you have to recall all kanji, then meaning if the word, then reading, only then you press “good”)

This can be frustrating because vocab will be slow, al lest like 3 or 5 times then nl/tl, but you’ll probably learn kanji as well.

Ok it’s absolutely not what you were talking about.

Also I’ve never done intentionally, I don’t have any plgins for this stuff yet, but I know around 1500 so picking some kanji while learning vocab and coming up with mnemonic is just a metter of doesns of seconds. Some times I’ll write them on my hand to reinforce while taking a bath.

What I want to say is that I would like to see this on the back of my card for each kanji in the word

I do love that, I’ve always wanted to sit down and learn all the radicals and the Japanese names for them. I’ve personally found since Japanese hasn’t really made kanji or compounds it’s easier for me to just learn the vocabulary as there’s not really a trend one can stick to unlike in Chinese. I do enjoy noticing the same kanji being used the same way, but I have no real follow up to noticing that lol. All I know is I spent way too much time on kanji garden for very little to show for it, except my favorite 4 kanji 有耶無耶

I understand you, i guess you just make yourself repete word (or see it) enough times that you recognize it, and after some time if you find the same word you just compare them and it becomes easy to differ, right?

I’ve personally loved learning kanji, and I still do! So I think I’m going to finish all 2200 in like 40 days if I won’t mess it up. It’s super enjoyable making those mnemonics, memory palaces)

And only yesterday I actually started using them. I switched furigana on and wow, I can see word a few times with furigana, and every time I see it I make my brain recall every kanji of this word (if it’s not learned yet) and some times it’s possible to guess meaning, and sometimes it’s not quite there but obviously that it’s very similar, so as long as furigana is there I can remember this word after a few encounters (so I’ll be able to read it and understand as long as furigana is in place, and it’s not something from like 5 kanji where I don’t even bother to recall them and just use popup dict)

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Yep exactly, I just do enough SRS without furigana that I have to remember the kanji (pun potentially intended) or I’ll just keep failing the word. Probably doesn’t sound like the most intelligent way of going about it but it works for me!

I personally got really tired of just doing kanji and only really recognizing the kanji, it’s reading, and the potential meaning of the kanji in the compound but having no clue what everything together meant. To me it felt like if I knew all the prefixes and suffixes and word roots in Latin but didn’t know what they meant together

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I’ll chip in my 2 cents as well and say that rtk might have been an ok system 20 years ago but there has been a lot more research into learning languages and how to do it
I did rtk up to about 1600 kanji and in my opinion I think all it really does now is give you the illusion of progress but I would say if you just want the illusion of progress from a number going up duolingo would possibly teach you more Japanese lol

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Man is doomed with answers)
I guess wanikani is the safest choice (also wk deck should be cool) ye

Safest and kind of easiest? I just show up thrice a day, do my reviews and lessons and that’s it

I personally hate Wanikani (we do exist). I’m a huge fan of just using a writing app and then doing writing and reading repetition.

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Can you elaborate why?

I agree with this. The whole mnemonics idea doesn’t work with everyone, and while they teach it in a easy->complicated kanji manner, there’s a lot of artificial lengthening of the lessons (I figure to get more money out of faster paced people who choose to do monthly)

The reliance on clean humor also isn’t for everyone, either. (It’s kind of like the sanitized version of kanji damage, but without any actual humor and feels forced) and ultimately the particals slow you down and the seperation between the actual origin of the kani and partical is not good long term, in my opinion.

I have more to say about wanikani but I must go, duty calls.

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The interface is ugly, the mnemonics just overcomplicate an easy thing, I hate learning through radicals, it forces you to start at the beginning and you can’t skip levels, and the majority of people I know that have used WK have 0 writing ability (I’ve even seen people confusing the simplest kanji like 木 and 本).

I can acknowledge it’s useful for some people, but it completely clashes with how I like to study (and kanji is my favorite thing to study).

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I think it makes sense @Rukifellth and @lunchbox1. I barely use the mnemonics and there are a lot of moments that I just create my own. I also don’t use the official website either. What writing app do you use @lunchbox1? I don’t usually do writing because it’s not my thing, but I want to try

On the opposite side, I’ll say that UI is not ugly but rather a nice bootstrap template.
Learning with radicals is fun.
I don’t know about pre-created mnemonics, as I used them just to understand the concept and then for 10-15 hard kanji I couldn’t come up with nice mnemonic myself.
But I guess it depends on whether the person likes it or not

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