An Obsession with Stats and Numbers

One thing I have increasingly noticed in the past few years due to the advent and adaption of learning apps is that Japanese learners have become obsessed with numbers. Almost to the point of learning Japanese not being viewed as a way to communicate, but all about streaks, digits, lists and logs. How much Kanji, how many words, how long of a streak, how many grammar points, how many hours, how many episodes watched, how many manga and light novels read. It’s a tad bit concerning how gamified it’s become.

Now first of all, I’m not saying that tracking your progress is bad. It’s can be a very good thing and a very good indicator of where you are and where you may need to improve in terms of knowledge. I have seen Japanese apps with tracking improve drastically over the years. From being an old school Anki user, to now using a combination of Bunpro/Wanikani/Migaku, it is still something I personally do on a daily basis. But it seems like on a weekly basis, I see a new log post, a new post about how many cards someone did in a day or a month, a detailed plan that looks about as exciting and creative an excel spreadsheet. Everything seems to be dictated by numbers.

You might be asking yourself, well what’s his deal? Is he just jealous of everyone trying to speed run Japanese in order to become a Japanese language God in the span of a year? Nope, not at all and that will never be that case. Trust me, if I had the formula to learn Japanese in a year, I would have already done so and shared it with everyone without trying to monetize it or strut around like Antonio Inoki after stiffing The Great Antonio. But I am concerned with the way the youth is approaching language learning. As some of you may know, I host local Japanese Study Groups in my city, and have been doing them for years. I have never charged a penny for them and have given up hundreds of hours of my time to help beginner and intermediate students. These study groups provide students access to advanced speakers and natives. This I feel is a great resource as the city I live in does not have a very large Japanese population, and any other in-person option would be very expensive.

Years ago, attendance was much better. Of course, we had plenty of college students and I was younger as well so that helped. Study groups ranged anywhere from 5 to up to 15 participants at times. (Starbucks didn’t always like us, lol) People went there not just to learn, but to talk with natives, talk about experiences they had in Japan, and just have a community in general. Did this for years, but even as the city population grew, attendance didn’t. Attendance started to dwindle in 2017, and the pandemic sort of ended it for good.

Post pandemic, we rebuilt the group. Many people have joined over the last couple years, we have done 3 Japanese learning panels at local anime conventions, and currently have a Discord with over 100 local members. Even so, attendance is very low with only 4-5 attendees on average each week, and most of them being older learners or natives. The younger Gen-Zers who attend don’t last very long. Of course, this is attributed to a lot of factors, but I also feel that these days, young people don’t think it’s necessary to attend an in person meeting to learn Japanese, and this is true. But I do feel that it is healthy to attend. Why? Because nobody brings up numbers at study sessions. If you can talk, you talk, and if can’t talk, you listen and ask questions. Nobody pulls out their phone or laptop to show their streak on Bunpro, and most of the regulars actually use Bunpro, Wanikani, or both. Why is that? Because we don’t really care, the learners don’t care and the natives who are there to talk sure as heck don’t care. All that we care about is if you can communicate or not, and if you’re willing to learn or help other people get better.

I understand that online, using numbers is a way to show your skill level or whatever, but Japanese is not an RPG where you level up offense, defense and dexterity in an organized chart. Japanese is a language, and language is chaos. A chaos where rules are fluid, changing, and thrown out altogether at times. It isn’t math where if one part is wrong the whole damn thing is wrong. Even if you mess up something in your sentence, chances are you’ll still get your message across. And thats what I feel language tracking apps and logs fail, they trap people in loop of numbers in the pursuit of perfectionism in all the wrong things. Language learning apps are a tool and not the answer, because before the 00s, people were still learning languages with a couple books, a notepad and plenty of wit. I think that part is lacking a bit now. I would argue that there are waaaay more people learning Japanese now, but the number or people becoming fluent is still probably similar to where it was 20 years ago.

Even when it comes to mass consumption of media in one’s target language, that itself is often quantified by number rather than value. It’s almost to the point that media consumption itself becomes more of a part of one’s identity rather than the conversations one has, the things you experience, and the things you give back to the community. I know that this also attributed to the world’s general acceptance of choosing media and brands to add to one’s own personality, but I see it so prevalently in Japanese language learning these days. Saying that you learned Japanese from watching thousands of episodes of Shounen anime and reading Harry Potter is almost viewed as a bigger badge of honor than saying you learned it from being in Japan and experiencing the daily life and culture.

And listen, I’m not trying to put anybody down here. Highly analytical people probably do benefit from tracking everything. One of the most brilliant learners I knew was obsessed with tracking everything when he was younger. Had a massive Anki deck, tracked the books he read, even built his own program for learning. (He kinda created his own version of Migaku, but never released or monetized it) But he stopped when he got good enough to not need to study. He doesn’t regret it, but he feels that it was the communication with people that in the end made his time and effort worth it. I guess what I’m saying is, numbers can be fun and can give you a visual reference of where you are at, but they should not be a measure of your skill level, as Japanese is vast, complex, and fluid; not absolute. Having numbers that are high can make us feel great, give us a hit of dopamine, but can breed a false sense of knowing, and having low numbers can prove to be disheartening for many, which is why so many quit believing they will never reach learning those 2000 Kanji in Wanikani, all the N levels in Bunpro, and the 2000 or so basic words you need to just understand the bare minimum.

To end this, I will say that if I’m wrong about this I’m wrong. This is after all, an opinion and not gospel, I want to make that very clear. My opinion on language learning has changed so much over the past several years, and it’s bound to change again. I think the problem lies in people thinking that certain ways of learning are absolute, better, or superior. A lot of “only my method works” mentality flies around Japanese learning circles, and I think that makes individuals reluctant to experiment with what works for them. It impedes creativity, and charts, numbers, logs…are just not very creative. They might work for analytical people, but for others, finding creative and fun ways to enjoy and learn Japanese is something I highly encourage. It keeps things fresh, prevents burn out, and makes you look forward to doing whatever you’re going to do in Japanese.

Japanese is not charts, numbers, textbooks, gamified apps, or a meaningless test. It is a language that allows us to communicate what we do, how we feel, how we see things in a way that’s different from our native tongue. Different in tone, nuance, feel, rhythm, and the way things are understood not just at a linguistic level, but a cultural one as well. I think it’s important not to forget that.

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Wow, dropping this in a new year morning (to me at least). You are absolutely correct. I, shamefully, am one of those “n1 in a year” pleb who strongly belive in numbers of grammars, vocabs, etc. But after finishing n2 content, I am stuck with the thought of “would this make me better at Japanese?” with every new content I learned preping for N1.

I know that I knew more words, consolidate grammars foundations day by day. But it is always feel like "yeah, learning this word is easy since I know all of its Kanjis, and meanwhile thinking “what have I achieved in this unit?”

I learn Japanese in my home country, in which the chance to actually use Japanese is very rare. And if such chance arise, I think I will ultilize it.

But for now, bigger and bigger numbers are only and all the motivations I have. I will keep pushing because I really wanted to have a N1 in July 2026 (not even know why I need it so much anymore). Learning Japanese daily has just become my hobby, or my obsession at this point.

I, of course, try to watch animes, reading novels for changes once in a while, but textbooks and apps are still all most all of my exposures to Japanese at the moment.

All in all, thank you for letting me having a good place to rant in the very early new year morning (cant sleep due to doing so much Shinkanzen). I once heard “when you got n1 certificate, only then you can truly learn the language”, I thought it was rubbish then but now it seems true.

Only by being freed from “Bigger and bigger numbers”, then you can appreciate Japanese and its beauty.

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Snaps all around! I think you put this very succinctly and nicely - as someone kind of new to the Japanese language learning community it was one of the most offputting things for me to get used to, even if it wasn’t intended in any such light. Ty for sharing your thoughts!

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Interesting!
I actually love statistics no matter what they are about.
But yeah, I think numbers in Japanese are especially important for me, because it is just so much to learn and so different from other languages I know and I’m just overwhelmed with all the kanji, vocabs and grammar so that I need small steps with many experiences of success and that’s easier with numbers. I’m sure, that I don’t “need” numbers that much anymore when I’m at a level, that I can actually read my first light novel without too much trouble, even if the most are still difficult.

Well, I think there are just a lot of people like me who only want to learn reading and listening Japanese and communicating is a “maybe in the future”. And since you find everything online nowadays and you can learn at your own pace, you just skip courses to save time.
However, I think people these days give up on courses too quickly in general. For me, it’s normal to complete a course, even if I wasn’t that enthusiastic in the first two sessions. Just because it isn’t that fun as I thought or cause it’s a little difficult or slow at the beginning, doesn’t mean that the course won’t be fun or easier or is a waste of my time. But maybe I’m wrong.
Oh and since the pandemic, many young people seem to be content doing things alone at home instead of being together with other people. I’m also a shy, introverted woman, but some things are just more fun with other people in real life :slight_smile:

I can’t quite understand the need to share one’s successes with the world. Milestones like N1 are allright (okay, I envy everybody with N3 for now, maybe I want to share it with the whole world when I got N3 myself xD), but every little success? Is it not enough, that I’m happy about reaching N5? Or to share it with only my family / some friends even if they don’t understand what it means? I love every badge I have and will get in BP, but they are for me, not for others :relieved: But I am glad that there ARE badges, because they give me motivation…

The fireworks seem to finally come to an end and I can go to bed. So I just do that instead of BP reviews (aaah, the numbers :sob::joy::stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:)
Happy New Year everyone :four_leaf_clover:

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As mentioned, there is nothing wrong with using stats and numbers, I myself use them. It’s when they come to define you as a learner that I think it becomes an issue. But as you get deeper into learning Japanese, at higher levels, advanced learners and speakers pretty much never ask anything regarding stats. It’s only ever beginners that ask me about stats or passed tests.

And I totally get the whole introverted thing. I myself am quite the introvert and thrived during the pandemic. But being an introvert never got me far in the Japanese world when it came to building connections. I needed to get out of my comfort zone, meet people, speak when I didn’t’ think I was ready.

The times I felt I was ready: 0
But did it anyway: Not every time, but in most cases

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I have felt this way about MOST of these apps, that they’ve gamified it without an expectation of where the learner is GOING. Don’t keep score. Go back to the first confusing content you ever came across and look at how much you’ve learned. Otherwise it’s just dopamine and anxiety.

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The two numbers I really care about:

  • my review stack being as close to zero as possible (it’s a similar philosophy to the zero inbox method, and it gets me straight to work on my japanese skills, even on bad days. Although I should allocate more time to other learning activities too and reviews will consume a lot of time.)

  • and of course, my precious B-Points, so I can get that sweet, sweet Dark Gradient theme one day! :upside_down_face:

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The number I obsess over is my accuracy percentage. I know getting stuff wrong is part of the process and nobody is so smart that they get nothing wrong, but I get upset when I get things wrong and the accuracy goes down.

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I think one of the main aspects that play into it is the type of person who learns Japanese in the West.

A large chunk of us is weebs who are into Japanese media. Among weebs, the share of technically inclined people is higher than among the general population. Technically inclined people tend to be data driven. So Japanese learning has more data-driven aspects than learning other languages only thanks to the Japanese learner’s demographic. Additionally, if there’s one thing that technically inclined people, specifically engineers, love to do: it’s re-inventing the wheel. Hence we have a constant stream of new apps and methods to learn Japanese in a mildly different way.

I’m not saying this is good or bad. Frankly I lack the experience to make a judgement. But it’s unique for sure.

But to the bad side where I can make a judgement: This creates the typical “technical discussion forum” (e.g. Stack Overflow) atmosphere on a lot of Japanese learning communities, which leads to:

  • a lot of elitism
  • people discussing learning Japanese rather than actually learning Japanese (meta discussion)
  • many very very very unfriendly people
  • bashing newbies and their approach to learning the language with a lack of acceptance if it differs from the own (the mentality that being right is rewarded more than being helpful)

Having been part of developer communities infected with “toxic elitism” since the dawn of the internet itself, I have the ability of letting those attitudes get past me completely. But I don’t think that in today’s world, this is a fair or reasonable expectation. If anything, those communities should calm down a whole lot.

On a positive level, I’m very happy that the Bunpro forums are a complete exception and everyone here seems nice and excellent. But it’s the reason I don’t interact with any Japanese learning community but this one.

That said, I do the mistake of being too data-driven myself. I set goals by “number of words known by X” or “daily amount of immersion time target” and so on, and so on. It helps to take a step back sometimes and remember that we are writing in English, most of us aren’t native English speakers, and almost everyone who is fluently writing in English here, learnt English in the most (number-wise) ineffective, slow and painful way possible: oldschool classroom style learning. And it somehow worked out.

So in the end, everyone learn Japanese the way they’re comfortable to. Whether it’s the arguably most effective way to do so or not, is secondary. Everyone who is interested and puts in the time, will eventually reach whatever goal they have in this language - as long as they keep at it.

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I agree with most of what you are saying, but I feel like a difference in goals is showing here.

My goal with learning Japanese was enjoying their entertainment media (although my desire to interact more with the people is growing). Living in Japan for many years is not really possible for me unless I get a new education in high demand and move there. I think a lot of people probably could move to Japan if they were willing to make necessary sacrifices, but I am not. I am more than happy just being able to visit as a tourist once in a blue moon and enjoying their media online.

I am not surprised a lot of people are showing a strong interest in what they can achieve through media rather than conversation when that is a lot of people’s goal in the first place, and to many the only thing they perceive as achievable.

To me it’s amazing that people have moved to Japan and interacted with their culture and learned things through experience and I hold their commitment and bravery with deep respect, but I barely talk to people in the languages I am native to in the first place so it feels like a distant alternative world to me.

Media consumption is also how I learned English might I add.

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I’d say in my experience, this is more that newbies have no idea what they’re doing and despite this, they often refuse to listen to advice, which causes people to get frustrated. I try to be nice to newbies regardless but I often see this pattern.

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I think when it comes to newbies, there’s also a large number of people who treat their ignorance or lack of knowledge as a sign that they’re uninterested in learning or too stupid to ever get it down. A lot of fairly basic questions get met with that kind of dismissal around the internet. It’s why I also don’t interact a lot with Japanese language spaces outside of this forum, where everyone seems a lot more relaxed!

In general, I’ve always been someone who liked to collect stats for what I’ve read and watched, but I did that before learning Japanese. What I don’t do is collect stats for my learning because I genuinely don’t think it offers me anything of value. For reading, gaming and watching, it’s not so much about the number as it is being able to look back and see what I was enjoying throughout the year.

The thing with language learning is that OP attests, too many people treat more reviews / lessons as meaning they’re automatically must better than someone who does less or will reach their goals quicker. And in some cases, I’m sure there are plenty of people who can drill more and get further faster than someone else. But my own experience is that I’d rather go slow and steady than try to be competitive and review or learn more just to see the number go up faster. It also just isn’t sustainable for me in the long run, which is why I’ve always stuck to doing a batch of 5 items on WK per weekday and 3-6 items on Bunpro and reviews only on weekends to keep reviews manageable. Ultimately, I care more about learning properly than I do any kind of stats.

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First of all let me just say, wow this was a great post!

I might have missed this in the main post but your follow up comment is what really binds everything together for me:

As mentioned, there is nothing wrong with using stats and numbers, I myself use them. It’s when they come to define you as a learner that I think it becomes an issue. But as you get deeper into learning Japanese…

I am one of those people obsessed with numbers, speed running, spreadsheet tracking. I love seeing my own progress over time, and I love seeing other peoples progress for two things:

  1. Seeing other people’s efforts motivates me into action
  2. It’s a reminder to take a moment and appreciate the fruits of my own labor.

There’s always someone who is more talented, experienced, has more time, etc… When it comes to ‘stats posts’, it’s all in the mindset of the learner - whether you want to transform this into positive or negative energy.

I understand that online, using numbers is a way to show your skill level or whatever, but Japanese is not an RPG where you level up offense, defense and dexterity in an organized chart. Japanese is a language, and language is chaos.

I get the intentions behind this but I’ll throw this in as a fun tid bit. My career is in programming and I treat it like an RPG in the same way I treat Japanese. You level up your skills in all the various areas by understanding the theory, and then solidify it by exercising it against varying scenarios - think training dummy vs real combat. Different scenarios will give you more experience and level you up faster in that category. Conversation can yield higher experience for listening, speaking, context etc… but I personally view these as higher level activities requiring not just more skill in the language, but mental strain. Sure you can jump right into real world application and skip the training dummy phase. After all, making a mistake can be the equivalent of a ‘respawn’. It’s how you design and play your RPG right?

Saying that you learned Japanese from watching thousands of episodes of Shounen anime and reading Harry Potter is almost viewed as a bigger badge of honor than saying you learned it from being in Japan and experiencing the daily life and culture.

Everyone has different goals/purposes for Japanese and a lot of people learn for the sake of consuming native media, with Japanese daily life & culture coming second or as a by-product. Props to everyone who achieves what they wanted out of the language!

I guess what I’m saying is, numbers can be fun and can give you a visual reference of where you are at, but they should not be a measure of your skill level, as Japanese is vast, complex, and fluid; not absolute

Absolutely, Japanese has a steep learning curve and with today’s technology, the most efficient starting point/stage is SRS. For all those still in the SRS stage or are beginning transition into other study methods like media consumption, perhaps a more fitting statement is: 'they should not be the only measure of your skill level’. I think by the time one feels ready to move onto conversation or decide not to, I hope they understand the limitations or diminishing returns from current methods.

All in all, this was a great post and raises the importance of reflecting on your own learner mentality. Recognize your strengths, weaknesses, short-term vs long-term goals, attitude and motivation. Thank you!

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You make a very valid point about different people having different goals. Truth be told, I don’t live in Japan either. There wasn’t a community of learners and speakers, so I created on one that has grown over the years. My goal was to speak and interact with Japanese people and I forget that not everybody has that goal.

Sometimes it’s easy to get caught up in the internet discourse, as mass immersionists tend to be the loudest, and most dismissive of other learning methods. I tend to forget that they don’t represent the majority of people using this method. I do find it impressive when people can learn with just media, as I personally have to interact with it for me to really drill it in.

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Basically this- numbers help me track my progress and keep me motivated. I dont “need” them but they help me break up the process when I dont feel like I’m getting anywhere. Knowing I spent 43 hours last month doesn’t change the quality of my study, but it did actually help me study a lot more- I wanted to challenge myself and keep up my 1 hour a day streak, so even on “off” days I dragged myself out of bed to do my wanikani. Numbers help add another facet of motivation to a fairly difficult language. Intrinsic motivation is by far the best motivation when it comes to language learning, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be helped along.

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This is so real too though :sob: ngl I am a Japanese speed runner hater, and I’m a “immersion is the only way” hater, because they’re so crazy elitist and weird about Japanese a lot of the time.

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It’s a cult.

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The longer this thread goes on the more it seems like OP is just trying to subtly prop up his learning strategies as superior to others. What does it matter how “loud” different learners are in regards to their own methods? If something works for you that’s great. If it doesn’t, that’s also fine.

Spend time with the language in whatever way you find best and you will improve. That’s where the conversation starts and ends IMO.

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And so, my master plan has been discovered. My plan to launch “The Kodawari Way” subscription service as the ultimate Japanese learning resource (at least in claim) has been foiled.

みやぶる has been cast, and my veil of secrecy is no more.

But you’re right, no matter the study method, people find their own way. That’s kind of what I said in my post, but I get it, TLDR. It does drag on a bit.

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Looking at this through the lens of the three pillars of empiricism, transparency (measurement), inspection, adaptation. Typically the process is sparked with a question that would potentially spark a change in behavior.

Let’s go through an example path through this process would arise from the question: “Am I making any progress?”

First, let’s find a way to measure this. An easy one would be informal or formal test results. Let’s go collect data by taking one of Bunpro’s JLPT practice tests!

Transparency: After taking the test, the results are made available. Any test we take where we can’t see the results is meaningless. If results are delayed (like the real JLPT) the behavior change will also be delayed (this also known as a feedback loop).

Inspection: After taking the test, we find that we either passed or failed.

Adaptation: If we failed, we might need to change our study habits, tools we use or several other things.

  • Do we just need more time? (Measure Trend)
  • Were our habits weak? (Inspect Habit measurements)
  • Did we take a test we weren’t ready for (Adapt test level)

Even if we pass, we might have more questions…

  • Was it was luck? (Measure trend)
  • How do I replicate this? (Inspect Habit Measurements)
  • Were any subjects weak? (Adapt study)

Finally, a reminder that effort in and of itself is not a goal. If your only goal is to study daily, you need to rethink things. Ask “why” until you get to the root goal.

Inflammatory example that has resulted in many people realizing they have no real goal
Why do I study daily? - To learn JP.
Why do I want to learn JP? - To watch Anime without subtitles
Why do I want to watch anime without subtitles? - To understand what’s going on in the anime… but wait, can’t I do that with English subtitles already?..

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