At what point should I expect to understand *some* Japanese?

Bunpro
#63

I happen to be a math professor (it’s weird that so many topics in this thread are touching on my personal experiences but I promise I’m telling the truth!), but for several personal reasons, I wasn’t a top student.

In my experience on both sides of the lectern, there are two kinds of students: the ones who coast on natural talent and the ones who work for that A. Natural talent always runs out eventually, and it often wrecks students who’ve never had to build coping skills. That’s exactly what happened to me! The only reason I went the distance and got that degree is that I transformed myself from the former student into the latter student.

I know this sounds discouraging, but I think it’s reassuring. There’s no need to be born special. It might take longer, but just about anyone can be that good at Japanese (or math) someday. You just need discipline and willpower!

EDIT: In other words, I don’t think it’s important who the best is or how long it took them. Whether that person’s results were faked changes nothing about what you should do for yourself. If you keep working and growing, you could still surpass them someday. But what’s much more important is that you could find the satisfaction within yourself that you know you’ve acquired a useful skill.

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#64

I also have another, kind of related question. People say “Anime Japanese is like another language” but is it really that different? Sure, it doesn’t sound like how native speaker would speak but are grammar and selection of vocabulary different too? It wouldn’t help at listening at all?

#65

I suspect what people mean when they say that is the language spoken in anime is often overly familiar. That is, characters use plain/casual language when speaking, even to superiors and strangers (depending on the character and the anime). That’s something you would rarely encounter in real life. Instead, you would expect to hear (and expect to use) polite language in many everyday settings, such as at work, when at a store or restaurant, when sightseeing, etc. Depending on your job and whom you interact with, you might also be expected to employ honorific or humble terms (which is one of the reasons it’s covered on the JLPT). In general, you would only use plain/casual language with your family and friends.

That’s my understanding of it, at least. This is all based on what I’ve read online, not firsthand knowledge, by the way.

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#66

My experience is limited, but that sounds right to me. It should be fine for listening/reading practice until you need to get formal with keigo and whatnot. In fact, I’d recommend a healthy diet of informal Japanese immersion practice. One of the biggest pains in the ass about learning Japanese is eye dialect and colloquialisms. It’s extremely useful to build an intuition for how Japanese people abbreviate things when they speak quickly… and practice listening to Japanese people speaking quickly, for that matter.

Until you’re understanding everything you hear, I’d say it’s more important to just spam yourself with whatever native speech/writing you can get your hands on. Just try to focus on picking out individual words and don’t talk that way to anyone who isn’t a good personal friend!

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#67

It will 100% help. I think the running meme/joke (at least, I hope people aren’t serious lmao) is that if you speak solely like they do in anime then you’re going to sound a little childish/super casual/etc. depending on what you’re watching. At the end of the day though, it’s going to help a ton, and it’s going to expose you to a ton of slang.

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#68

I think it depends largely on the anime, as stated before. There are a lot of shows that take place in settings where formal and humble language is the most common register…

I think the most common register in a show is going to fall along genre lines. Certain slice-of-life shows might give you a decently faithful approximation of what everyday conversation in a certain scenario may look like, but if you watch a lot of shounen or fantasy anime, you need to be more scrutinizing in what you “take away” from your learning.

But my motto is, “take it where you can get it.” Literally anywhere. No matter where it comes from.

Practice is practice. I ain’t gonna put on airs; as soon as I could stumble my way through them, I read a lot of hentai doujin manga. It DID end up helping! But of course, I was mindful about where I was sourcing my knowledge from the whole time. :stuck_out_tongue:

And, well, here I am now, that much better for it.
¯\(ツ)/¯

“Take it where you can get it.”

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Immersion month 4: Letting go of subtitles
#69

Another internet lie then, it’s not like I will yell at people like “Baka!”.

That’s nice because I watch Anime, also weird because even after watching tons of Anime, I didn’t learn single thing about Japanese. Of course that was before studying, maybe things will be different now I’m studying. Though I started thinking about “what does that mean” while watching and missing the stuff happening sometimes.

#70

69th post in your own thread nice

Anyway, it takes time. Pseudo-mathematically, it’s
((immersion time) * (exposure volume))

I watched literal hundreds of shows over the span of a few years, plus listened to Japanese vocal music day in and day out, morning to evening, almost all the time when I wasn’t watching anime, before I ever “picked up” anything… granted, that’s back when I wasn’t trying (much, anyway), so you can proooobably get better results sooner if you keep making a conscious effort. :stuck_out_tongue:

But unfortunately, the flipside is that no matter how impatient you are to see results, sometimes you just have to keep going and going and going and going, and it’s an endurance challenge.

I do want to mention, once again, the advice in this thread about re-iterating over the same material several times, though. Watching the same anime over and over can, obviously, get boring, and if stuff like Teppei or other explicit listening exercises aren’t your jam, find some good Japanese vocal music to put on repeat or something. Going over something familiar, but not-yet-understood, across the span of days, weeks, months, can both serve to help you learn the contents, and also be a good benchmark for seeing your own progress, especially on a decently-sized sample set of media.

EDIT: Just wanted to add, after checking the OP, that only being 4 months in… trust me, you have nothing to worry about. Not really getting much of anything is no big deal at this point. Just keep it up!

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#71

I want to thank you all for your detailed responses.

@Silver_Skree @Muere @HotAirGun @Brand_S

Quick questions:

  • How does Pimsleur “work”? What would be a typical day workflow using them?

  • How about Italki? My previous experience with a Tutor wasn’t the best because I felt my case needed a lot of customization (I’m very advanced in Kanji, reading and writing, but I make fundamental basic errors when speaking, hearing, etc.). I’m worried that I would just be wasting money with someone that just wants to recite grammar points instead of actually transforming an experience around me (I know, everything customized means more money)

  • Should I just watch some Netflix shows in Japanese with the understanding that I will NOT get it all, but I should NOT pause to figure out why I dont understand it? (This has been my main blocker with immersion). Is this what you refer to with “tolerate the ambiguity” ?

  • That N1 post in Reddit in less than a year. I’m not sure. I have dedicated 1 to 2 hours DAILY since August 2019 till now, and…I’m so far from N1…

#72

Honestly I would stay clear of Pimsleur. I’ve listened to some content in the past and I feel like it’s not structured properly at all. I view it as what people would take to go and memorize sentences if they want to travel abroad to a country and be able to survive for a bit and order food. Obviously this is purely subjective, but I cannot for the life of me understand the pricepoint it’s at. There’s some content there, but you’re not really understanding how it all works and why it’s being used the way that it is. From there, you’re going to have a tough time branching off from these sentences and creating some yourself. A little hard to explain, but it’s just not for me. Oh I forgot to mention - if this is a route you’d want to take (audio files that help teach you) then I would recommend japanesepod over it. Yeah their pricing is a little weird and their methods a little predatory lmao, but they do it much, much, MUCH better. Maybe this can be something you can look into?

There’s a myriad of youtubers out there who provide way more in-depth explanation of things while giving you varied sentences to actually push you and also don’t take 30 minutes to poorly explain things. Said youtubers tend to ask for the watcher to either translate a sentence shown or, more commonly, will say a sentence in english and then have the watcher translate it. I think this is a much more engaging way to practice listening. To each their own, but nothing I’ve seen, and most non-sponsored reviews seem to not be able to justify the absurd subscription price.

This is interesting to read! I’ve had friends use italki and preply before and they’ve never mentioned anything like this, usually it’s been nothing but positives. Bummer! Usually when you schedule with a tutor you can message them to say what you’re really looking for and a lot of the time they’ll have pre-made ‘lessons’ that are dedicated towards either purely grammar, casual speaking, reading news articles together, etc. Try to find a tutor that has some reviews left and see what people are saying. There’s the whole debate of certified tutors vs. community ones, but that’s a whole 'nother convo. I’d check both preply and italki to get a better feel for things. To answer your last question, there’s no reason why customization would mean more money. What exactly would you want to do with a tutor? Just casual convos?

Ignore that post lmfao. The chance of it being real is so low and even if it was, it’s a pure ego stroke that has no basis in reality. It is beyond absurd and should be treated as such, the things learnjapanese discuss just continues to boggle my mind. O well :slight_smile:

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#73

Thank you!

My tutor was not from Italki, I was mentioning how I felt with the experience, hoping that Italki would be different (with your description, it seem like it is).

In my “perfect world scenario”, a tutor would be able to grasp what I’m good at, what I lack, and be very direct into HOW I should work to improve. I would really like very clear-defined instructions, on a daily basis, with clear expectations. So far all of my progress has been …well, me learning as I go. I would really like some expert structure with defined checkpoints on top of this whole thing…

Yes casual convos could be a start, but I would like an actual improvement plan, with visible results after established dates.

Again, perfect scenario, I know all of this is very hard.

#74

Ahhhhhh okay that makes a lot more sense, looks like I read it wrong. I’ve had regular tutors in other languages growing up and honestly that experience is enough for me to stay way away from any other tutor. I really think you’ll have a positive experience on either italki or preply. You’ll find there’s a big chunk of tutors out there who will provide you with custom homework after your lessons. I’d recommend just spending some time on the sites and reading about their potential lesson plans and also listening to their intro video. You’ll be able to quickly pick up which ones are standard tutors (not that there’s anything wrong with that) and you’ll able to see which ones really are excited to learn about each new student and figure out exactly what they want to learn.

As long as you have a grasp on what you personally want to work on and help build a foundation for the tutor, they’ll be able to work with you to keep pushing. Each site offers 1 or 2 ‘trial lessons’ which basically are 30 minute lessons at a reduced rate so you can see if the service is right for you. Usually runs below $12, sometimes as low as $5 for some really good instructors. I know people here on Bunpro have nothing but good things to say about their experiences on there, hopefully you can add to that growing group!

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#75

Pimsleur is a good way to get started for sure. It is challenging and keeps you on your toes. Put the words you learn in Anki, drill the phrases, and keep pressing with one lesson a day. Look up unknown grammar on Bunpro. Once you finish all Pimsleur lessons, get on an app like iTalki, find an instructor, and drill speaking practice with them. I wouldn’t expect them to come up with the lesson, utilize the grammar you learn in Bunpro, decide to have a conversation on something, like your hobbies, then try to talk on that subject using learned grammar. If you keep speaking every day without fail on focused topics and grammar points, “putting it in practice” will start to become more of a reality. You won’t have to think about things like て form anymore, it will just be natural.

For pure listening, beginner material is tough. However, with your kanji knowledge you could start doing things like watch Netflix and YouTube with Japanese subtitles. There is a Google chrome plugin (LLWN and LLWY) that allows you to get subtitles and “crude” translations on Netflix and YouTube videos. If you have a VPN you can just watch Japanese Netflix, it’s much easier. For active listening, there is a JLPT app called “Migi” that has a treasure trove of material. The best part is that they have the transcript, and an English translation.

My listening strategy is to try and listen to something, even if it is only 10-20 seconds, without subtitles, maybe once or twice and try to grasp the meaning. Then with what I think the meaning is in my head I would listen to it again with subtitles and compare. I’ve completed WaniKani and nearly all of Bunpro, so I usually don’t need English translations, so it became a quick check to see if I was right. I would do this with YouTube Anne News (Japanese news) videos every day, like 10, 1 minute videos. Soon enough I was able to pick it up and now listening to the news is enjoyable (I only do it when I run now).

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#77

Immersion routine differs from person to person, so it’s hard to me give you some universal advice.
As for me, I rewatch some favorite anime I know by heart with Japanese subtitles and without them. Also, I have audio tracks from them on my mp3 player, so I can listen to it while commuting. Some people also do sentence mining and put n+1 sentences in their Anki deck, but I found it too boring and quit after several months.
To put it shortly, it’s preferable to watch shows you can still enjoy even in pure Japanese and even after rewatching dozens of times. At least it works for me, your mileage may vary :slight_smile:
There’s a good video from Cure Dolly about it (turn CC on):

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#78

The moment a Japanese native utters the words “日本語は上手ですね” is when you will understand.

Sorry, I had to. No one did it yet.

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#79

I just wanted to thank everyone in the thread for a really thought provoking discussion, and doubly so for everyone who provided links to resources! I’ve checked every one, and I’ll be incorporating several into my practice. Just one more thought:

  • Should I just watch some Netflix shows in Japanese with the understanding that I will NOT get it all, but I should NOT pause to figure out why I dont understand it? (This has been my main blocker with immersion). Is this what you refer to with “tolerate the ambiguity” ?

Just my two cents, but alternate between both. We are all building holistic mental models of a language, so it’s worth absorbing the raw material of what is out there, so we don’t “stay small” with the vocabulary we are comfortable with and trap ourselves in a sort of pidgin rut that isn’t very good (this has happened to me with other languages when I plateaued and stopped practicing).

On the other hand, expertise studies talk about “deliberate practice”, where you focus on intentionally mastering small things (and that would include looking up and thinking about words: you can use the Yomichan dictionary plugin or the Language Reactor plugin to do it fast and efficiently via tooltip, it takes less than a second).

There is a wonderful quote in Nietzsche popularised by Angela Duckworth’s Grit, a fantastic book about perseverance:

“Do not talk about giftedness, inborn talents! One can name great men of all kinds who were very little gifted. They acquired greatness, became 'geniuses’, through qualities the lack of which no one who knew what they were would boast of: they all possessed that seriousness of the efficient workman which first learns to construct the parts properly before it ventures to fashion a great whole; they allowed themselves time for it, because they took more pleasure in making the little, secondary things well than the effect of a dazzling whole”.

The original is from Human, All Too Human, in case it is of interest.

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#80

Hello! The short answer is, you’re doing just fine in terms of hours per day, but not as much in terms of topic coverage + the reality that Japanese has a steeper learning curve compared to other languages.

If you’re 60-70% done with N5 here on Bunpro, I estimate you have the fluency of a Japanese toddler. It sounds funny, but also really true. Even in “Japanese for beginners” videos that are targeted towards kids below 5 years old, these kids are probably closer to N4 already in terms of overall coverage in terms of kanji, kana, grammar, reading, listening, vocab.

Since I learned through the Genki textbook, I would say you need to finish both Genki books (approximately halfway into N4 coverage) to feel like you know some Japanese. I’d say you’d feel moderately proficient in Japanese by N3.

And when I say N4, N3, etc. it really covers all aspects: vocab, kanji, grammar, reading, listening, and speaking. I am in favor of learning a little bit of everything regularly (following Tofugu’s term of interweaving, the makers of kanji learning app WaniKani).

When I say “you’d feel like you know some Japanese after N4” that’s really the level of proficiency of someone below 10 years old. Japanese is naturally a language with a lot more topics to cover at every step of the way (think 3 times the grammar/vocab for every 1 thing you learn in English), so if your goal is to stay a casual learner, then don’t feel bad. This pace is normal :slight_smile: My friends who learned European languages probably became fluent in 1-2 years whereas I spent like 4 and up for Japanese

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#81

So before I give my opinion to your original question, I wanted to share my thoughts on your other question about Japanese used in anime and why some say it’s like a completely different language.

Here are a few key points to understand:

  1. Most vocabulary used in anime pertains to the settings (genre, time period, etc…)
  2. All lines are scripted and voiced by professionals
  3. Various speech patterns and dialects are often used

With all these things combined, it will sound alien to someone who has studied only from books and other similar materials. Those are the people who usually say Japanese in anime is like a completely different language.

Moving on to your original question. I read many previous comments but skimmed through others. Everyone has shared some great advice and experiences.

So first off 20 - 60 mins per day and only 4 month in isn’t much. But of course you said you’re a casual learner so that’s no problem. It will be quite some time before you can understand 10% of what characters are saying. Not only do you have to input hours and hours of listening but you have to learn more vocab and grammar. At some point like someone mentioned, you will be begin to pick up single vocab words or grammar patterns you often hear. Even at that point as mentioned in a Tofugu blog post, it still requires at least 70%(I don’t remember the exact number they used) of the sentence to be understood to know what it means.

Finally after reaching that level of understanding through increased vocab and grammar knowledge, Japanese doesn’t translate fully to English. So the context, feelings, and gist of what is being said is what’s most important to actively listen for.

Only way to improve listening is to keep on listening. To sum it up, you said its not a priority nor are you looking for motivation. So my straight answer to you is, the time you’ve spent so far makes sense that you can’t understand what they are saying at native level speed.

Keep at it at your own pace and eventually you will pick up words and patterns. Check back in after a few more months and let us know how you doing. Of course make sure you are adding more listening even if you don’t understand.

Forgot to mention my experiences. I have hundreds of hours if not more of listening from various Japanese materials including anime. This was before I moved to Japan. At first like you I could not understand anything for like a year besides catching a few vocab words here and there. This was after I actually studied for a year at Univ. 3 years later after increasing my grammar and vocab knowledge it really helped. I never stopped listening. If I was to sum up the percentage of my study time, it would be 1% writing, 5% reading, 14% speaking, and 80% listening.

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#82

personally, i started picking up thing that i’ve learned pretty much right away.

for example, i started wanikani at the same time i started watching pokemon in japanese. in wanikani, you learn the word for cow (うし) and insect (むし) at level 3/4. and in episode 4 of pokemon there’s a stupid pun on those 2 words:
“* When Misty screams “Bug!”, Ash gets in a cow costume and suggests that the bug is a “cowterpie”. In the Japanese version, he instead makes an untranslatable pun: Misty says “Mushi! Mushi! Mushi! …Mushi!” which means “Bug! Bug! Bug! …Bug!”. Ash then says “Ushi?”, meaning “Cow?”.”
(Ash makes a pun out of his halloween costume - YouTube)

i would say that it would be pretty hard to NOT catch those 2 words since one second you see an insect and a second later you see this :

image
image773×732 69 KB

obviously, the context (visual in this case) is essential for this, i doubt i would’ve picked those up in an audio drama where i didn’t know 99% of all the other words. but the more you learn the more stuff you pick up. it feels really nice when you go from understanding a few words to a few sentences to few conversations, etc…

you could also try listening to japanese dub with english subs. while it’s probably less effective for acquisition, that’s way it’s waaaaay easier to pick up stuff you already learned since you know the meaning of the sentence beforehand. this is also valid for “real life” convos

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#83

I watched today my first anime with japanese subtitle and I could understand like 70% of it. Flying witch.

Actually I am quite happy with this result and could laugh of the situations that appeared there. I am 3,5 months into bunpro and it is helping me a lot to interpret sentences with grammar.

Watching 1 episode per day I intend to get faster at reading and get the gist of a sentence as soon as I start reading it, just like we do when we read in English and already we complete in our minds the rest of words and sentences. I hope to achieve this doing N3 grammar now.

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