Bunpro using rare kanji writings/"overusing" kanji

[hx9]

I think most modern games use furigana or at least have it available.

(@Alerean you should check out this list. Maybe you’ll find “a game like that” in this list that’s a bit more beginner friendly!)

Using Game Gengo's Games for Studying Japanese List - Google Sheets as a basis, 245 use furigana, 125 do not, 10 of which are Fire Emblem games and 1 of which is hiragana. Granted, there’s a bit of sampling bias here since it’s a Japanese learning channel.

As a beginner, for the same reason it’s not wise to learn every reading of a kanji up front, so too is it important not to learn every way something is written up front. 何故、蜜柑 probably should be learned as kana first, then as kanji a bit later.

Just trying to make sure our beginner friends here aren’t discouraged. I was straight up in a state of despair when I started with my first game as Pokemon Scarlet!

[travv0]

@hx9

I think most modern games use furigana or at least have it available.

I think it entirely depends on the age of the target audience of the game, but fortunely for learners, the target audience for many games is children.

[LennartHespenheide]

you are right, just open the lyrics for any Shiina Ringo song and even Japanese are amused at what they read. In the end it’s about aesthetics and style of writing.

[xyc1993]

That’s a good point but not every learner who’s a gamer will want to play children oriented games, even if it’s a good way to start immersion learning. That’s why I waited a bit before playing games in japanese. I started only after passing N3 (it wasn’t a requirement that I set for myself, the timing just happened to be that way) and at that point it was a nice experience. So far the games I’ve played didn’t have furigana. Previously I tried immersion with media that was more accessible to my level but not very interesting to me and I just couldn’t keep doing that, it was a chore.

[travv0]

That was pretty much my point, that saying that most games have furigana is only true if you mostly play games for a younger audience, but if you do want furigana, there are many options out there.

[rustx]

This is similar for me. The ‘recommended’ anime and games that are common in learning circles were a chore for me and I never could sink into them, I found it much more annoying that I had to relearn 此れ 其れ 又 此間 etc for a second time when I could have just learned them in their original form in the first place.

No idea why anyone would want to force themselves to wait to learn the same thing twice

[hx9]

@rustx

No idea why anyone would want to force themselves to wait to learn the same thing twice

What I hear you saying is that beginners should learn 此れ, 是, 之, 維, 惟 when they first learn これ meaning “this”. If they didn’t, they’d ‘forcing themselves to learn the same thing twice.’

[rustx]

If they’re learning it for the first time there’s no difference in mental weight between learning
此れ and これ, its still an entirely new word for them.

Its the exact same as making them learn only みかん instead of 蜜柑 when seeing it for the first time, and again just wasting their time making them have to relearn it again if they decide to play like Harvest Moon in the future.

[Alerean]

If you’re mainly learning words to use them in conversation it does make a difference in the overall effort it takes to remember. I almost always forget the kanji of a new word a few times but I’ll often recall the word itself or recognise it in Hiragana.

A good example of what I’m talking about is a word I learned recently…

橇
そり

I’ve been forgetting the kanji of this all week but I know the word and can use it. And a Japanese friend didn’t even know the kanji for this one and reckons it’s probably not used a lot.

[rustx]

Level of importance here is probably being understated. Both of us picked objects which are fine to just know the pronunciation for speech. But not being able to recognize the absolute most basic words of これ それ etc, in which I even gave an example of the kanji forms being used in a mainstream game, would require the learner to go back and re-learn those words with their kanji forms.

Not really why this is a friction point. You either learn the kanji form to begin with and thereby also know its hiragana form. Or you can choose to only learn the hiragana form and be unable to read the kanji form.

[hx9]

I think there is a very large difference in “mental weight”. At the very least, it adds learning 此 as こ on top of これ = .

But it’s more than that really. Let’s imagine a person with limited study time. They have to decide what kanji they’re going to study at any given time. They read your post and think “I should learn any kanji that might show up in a mainstream game like Fire Emblem: Latest Subtitle.”

• How soon should they learn 此れ? If we go by kanji frequency, 20 Kanji per study period, it would be learned in 103 periods (2078th).
• Should they learn it sooner, despite many other kanji being more frequently used? How do they determine that?
• Does increasing the amount of upfront learning by learning low frequency kanji on a high frequency words change the probability that they succeed at learning the language?
• Does increasing the amount of upfront learning by learning all the kanji for the most common words change the amount of time it takes to become functionally literate?
• Where do they draw the line with the other forms - 此れ, 是, 之, 維, 惟? Do they learn them all? Is there a frequency cut off? If so, how is that different than the frequency cut off being at これ without kanji? How do they know where that cutoff is?

In addition, I’ve experienced several times where a kanji word appears as kana and I struggle to comprehend it. In other words, is it possible that the opposite is true: that studying the kanji form may require more mental weight?

Examples of this below:

Less serious example from Dragon Quest - Mainstream Game

Minor Spoiler for DQ1 Remake

More serious example from Live a Live Remake - Not really a spoiler as the entire intro for one of the plots is katakana… and very hard to read imho. Some native streamers struggle through it.

Minorest of Minor spoilers for the first minute of Live a Live Remake...

[JamesBunpro]

I think as with lot of things with learning Japanese there are going to be trade-offs either way, especially when talking about the order of learning things. For example, if someone is intent on doing individual kanji study prior to learning any word that contains a given kanji then they’re going to need to frontload some stuff which maybe could be left to later. Or, conversely, someone wants to learn the spoken language as quick as possible and focuses on learning vocab and always uses furigana, then they will have to struggle with learning to read later on. There isn’t really a “right” answer here as it depends on goals and preferences.

I think it might be useful to consider that there are “rarer kanji forms” when a word would also commonly appear in books etc without furigana (i.e., a literate person would be able to read the word without furigana assistance). This is different to truly rare kanji forms, where they would appear with furigana as even literate natives may struggle to read them. So something like 何故 is not really “rare” and will not normally appear with furigana (unless it is meant to be read as なにゆえ, which is less common), even if it is less common that なぜ, but something like 樫 (かし) would commonly be written with furigana in even books aimed at literate adults.

Essentially, there are gradations even in what “rarity” means. How to then handle learning things is then up for debate. My personal experience is that if you keep learning and reading then you’ll end up knowing what is actually common or not intuitively and if something isn’t important enough for it to stick then it is okay to forget about it anyway.

[Rukifellth]

@hx9

I think adding rarer kanji (not necessarily rarer uses of them) later is probably a bit more efficient. I don’t think learners are going to be playing Fire Emblem right out the gate, especially since it’s a rare case of not having furigana available.

Almost every game I play doesn’t have furigana available. I think it’s rarer to find a game with furigana. I’m on the other side, teach the rare kanji and if it happens to appear, great. you already know it. if it doesn’t you should still recognize the readings.

[Hairymini]

Agree with the distinction of “uncommon” readings like 何故 vs almost unused readings.

Overall I’d just like a bit more control over furigana:

1. Include a setting for learned words not having furigana. A bit painful for someone joining Bunpro late in their journey, but allows newcomers to not have to jump the grammar/vocab/kanji barriers all at the same time. I know you can set it individually for words, but tying it to learned words would help a lot.
2. Include a setting for furigana on words based on JLPT/jōyo/frequency of kanji.
3. Include a setting which includes furigana for extremely uncommon readings.

1 or 2 would be my preferred solution and would help a lot with the “sentence uses kanji I don’t know” problem.

[Hairymini]

Case in point. Here the verb 高ぶる is written with the irregular reading of the kanji 昂る. 神経 is an N3 word in Bunpro.

I’ve been getting stuck on this reading passage, so thought I’d add the word to my learning queue. However, the specific reading doesn’t even exist as a separate word in Bunpro and is just a footnote as an alternative reading in Jisho.

It can be really off-putting when the use of kanji is so zealous that it prioritises high-level irregular readings at levels like N3.

[torafugu]

@hx9

I think most modern games use furigana or at least have it available.

I agree with most of what you said, however if folks are learning through ADV/Visual Novel games; furigana is rare. For the most part, it is the Nintendo mainstream games that have furigana since they are aimed at Japanese children.