Can someone explain this 上で to me?

Japanese
#1

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Beginning of the second speech bubble, “もう水中というハンデの上での戦いは終わりだァァ!”
The speaker, Bruford, and Jojo were fighting underwater.

Context: This served as a disadvantage for them both because Bruford was wearing heavy armor and Jojo couldn’t breathe, which he has to have to use 波紋パワー. Jojo got a single breath from a bubble and used it to push them both out of the water.

This 上で confuses me because it doesn’t seem to align with the 上で taught in bunpro, none of its example sentences seem to show (noun)の上での(noun). If this sentence said ハンデである戦い I would understand, but I’ve never seen 上で like this so I’m confused.

#2

From my perspective, it seems like a rough translation would be “This battle with this so-called ‘underwater’ handicap placed on top of it all is now over.” I think it’s meant to be a more literal form of 上で, meaning “on top of” or “above”, and is not meant to refer to the N3 grammar point found in Bunpro.

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#3

This may also help elucidate it for you:

上で

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#4

Yeah that’s what I meant when I said

Doesn’t seem to be the same or if it is, it doesn’t align with the example sentences

#5

Yep, I think it’s still essentially this same nuance, however it’s not being used to create an explicit logical progression of events like all of Bunpro’s example show (in the JoJo sentence, there’s no second action in the sequence that logically follows the first). That said, it’s still encompassing a sequence of events, and describing the fight as being greatly affected by the underwater handicap, forcing them to use more than just brute strength to win.

My dictionary lists a certain usage of 上で that seems to align closely with the JoJo example–see the sentence with 酒の上での与太話:
7 〔…の後〕 after…; 〔…の結果〕 on…; upon…; 〔…した時〕 when….
►熟考の上 after careful consideration; on second thought(s)
・電話連絡の上 after telephoning; after getting in touch by telephone
・書類選考の上 after screening candidates’ documents; after consideration of candidates’ written applications.
►酒の上で under the influence of ┏alcohol [*liquor]
・あの話は酒の上での与太話にすぎない. What I said was ┏just [no more than] drunken nonsense.

In that example, the speaker is saying the idle babbling was affected by/results from drinking alcohol.
We can apply this same sort of logic to the JoJo example too: the outcome of the fight was resultant from the handicap that both fighters had–it forced them to pit their spirits, wits and skills against each other’s in order to win.

See also the entry for V-るえうで in A Handbook of Japanese Grammar Patterns which shows some other nuances of 上で that also show a kind of progressive nuance:

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#6

なんて賢しい! That makes perfect sense, thanks so much - you even explained what I couldn’t describe about the Bunpro description disparity - that is, that the jojo panel’s usage does not have a second action that follows the first. 幸あれ！

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#7

Glad it helped. After thinking about it, I feel like you can visualize most of the 上 grammar points as being like a figurative table. Whatever 上 is attached to becomes a base to put things on top of, so to speak. With the particle で、we’re using that tabletop as a base which we can put another action (or circumstance) on top of, so that the result is supported by the base. Alternatively, we can use it as a sort of base to view some other important consideration, like in the V-る上で example.

With に, we’re just saying some other object of importance exists on top of that base. Hence, the “moreover” translation.

Same thing with -じょう, we’re viewing something from a certain standpoint.

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