Feedback from a new user

Bunpro
#1

I started using Bunpro earlier this week, and here are my thoughts on it so far. I’ve long been skeptical of whether Bunpro would actually help, but I’ve never found any other ways to study grammar that help either, so I figured I might as well give it a shot.

One thing that is immediately confusing is the scoring. If you put in an answer that is even close, usually the hints will just tell you what to do or you can keep trying different things until you get it right, and it is still marked correct. The only time it actually counts as missing a review is if you can’t remember it at all and have to click “show answer”, and even then it seems like you have to manually mark yourself incorrect by pressing enter. If you just hit backspace and type in the answer, it seems like it is counted as correct.

Another thing that disappoints me is that Bunpro appears to only be E->J. It feels like you’re basically just memorizing a bunch of things like “when it says ‘importance of means’, type in ‘noni’”, which doesn’t seem very helpful. And there’s often many different grammar points that seem like they could fit a given description, at which point it’s just trial and error until the hints hopefully tell you what to do or you give up and reveal the answer.

The hotkeys are also difficult to discover. I tried searching for hotkeys online, but the only post I found didn’t list very many. But I discovered a couple not listed by accident, like pressing F to view information or A to switch between alternate answers. However, there’s a lot more where I haven’t found a hotkey yet. For example, there doesn’t seem to be any way to start a quiz once you’ve read the pages for three new grammar points using the keyboard. You have to switch to the mouse and click on the dialog which is annoying.

Another annoying thing is that during reviews, there doesn’t appear to be any way to modify the beginning of your answer, other than deleting and retyping the whole thing. You can’t just move the cursor back for some reason. It’s pretty annoying if there’s a long answer where you’re trial-and-erroring the bit at the beginning.

Also, for some reason this popup won’t go away no matter how many times I close it.

Screenshot from 2023-11-11 22-05-06
Screenshot from 2023-11-11 22-05-061141×113 5.64 KB

Edit: It looks like there is an option for “reading reviews”, so I guess I’ll try that out. I only found out about it by browsing the forum. I did look through the settings menus before, but missed the fact that it has multiple tabs and didn’t see any way to control review types before so I assumed the default was the only option.

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#2

Hello, welcome

I saw your post in the JLPT thread as well and I would suggest just reading as much as possible. In tandem with Bunpro you should see a fair amount of improvement to your reading speed and ability to intuit grammar.

Backspace is the shortcut for the redo button. Enter is the shortcut for the enter answer button. You are given a chance to redo/read the lesson (scroll down)/etc before moving on when you get the answer wrong. If you got it wrong and you want to move on then just hit enter to move on.

There are hints in Japanese. You can change the order that hints/translations show up by clicking the settings cog in the top left during reviews. Set it to show the nuance first and then show just the nuance and it should show you only a nuance hint in Japanese. All those hints are written with consistent language just for that specific grammar point to help you choose the correct one. Many grammar points are similar but the nuances are different - it can take getting used to but the system Bunpro uses is largely effective in my experience.

Bottom right button that looks like a keyboard during reviews should show you a map of all the hotkeys.

I am able to move the cursor with my mouse and with my arrow keys so I am not sure what is going on here and can’t help you - you should be able to do it though.

Some stuff does take getting used to but I would treat it like starting a new textbook where you need to learn you way around the language and method that the authors use. If you are an N2 student then Bunpro really works best as a way to support engaging with native materials, as I alluded to up top. There is simply no replacement for native materials at that level though. I also noticed on your JLPT post that you said you were going through N3. You don’t have to do things in order so if you are cramming for the N2 then I would strongly suggest just scrolling through the N2 grammar lessons and manually adding things that you think you don’t know or need practice on, just simply because the test is so soon. It is a pass/fail test so you don’t need perfect knowledge. Bunpro also has a resources tab for each grammar point that links to outside resources if you need extra help with specific things. Also feel free to ask on these forums as some people (like me) enjoy discussing the nuances of grammar.

Sorry I couldn’t help with everything you had an issue with but, anyway, welcome and I hope you can get enough Japanese in before the test!

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#3

If you miss an answer then just click “Next” to save it as incorrect. The site is flexible because Japanese is flexible; there are tons of ways to express the same thing. Instead of rejecting grammatically correct answers, they let you try out different options until you get the right one. People who prefer rigid grading can just mark themselves incorrect and move on. To me that’s a good way to accommodate different learning styles. Someone could abuse it if they really wanted to, but the same is true of literally any online resource. Bunpro is a tool we’re using for our own benefit - there’s no advantage to faking mastery.

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#4

Oddly enough you can do it with the Android app.

That being said I don’t mind having to retype the answer too much because I take it as a “punishment” for getting it wrong/making a type and it helps build muscle memory. I’m a pretty fast touch-typist though, so even longer answers are pretty quick to retype, I could see it being a lot more annoying otherwise.

As @CurseKitsune mentioned you can change the hint level, but also and especially as you get further into the more advanced content there’s so many similar but subtly different ways to say the same thing that it’s just too difficult to guess the right one without a specific hint.

I do certainly find that sometimes I rely heavily on the exact wording of the hint to remember the expected answer, and some of those hints are maybe too much on the nose. For instance the 切る grammar hint says:

A grammar point that expresses (A) being done completely, or to the cutoff point.

Of course if you use “cut” in the hint I know precisely which verb it’s going to be even though I may not have remembered otherwise!

I’ve been thinking of only displaying the Japanese hint by default to make things a bit harder and force me to think a little more, but it would also make my review sessions a lot longer I fear… In the case of 切る the hint is:

(A)が完全に行われた、又はいいところで中断されたということを表す表現。

Which obviously doesn’t mention “cutting” directly.

I just thought that a potential nice feature would be to modulate the hint level with SRS. Getting full hints for beginner items but forcing the user to think a little more for more advanced items.

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Feedback - Suggested Improvements/Feature Request
#5

This

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#6

Update: I tried doing reviews using “nuance” only as you suggested, which seems to be a bit better. But one thing I’m wondering is if there’s any way to get it to automatically display the English translation after you answer. So far, it seems that the only way to show it is to press shift + space three times.

P.S. Thanks for the tip about the keyboard shortcut list popup.

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#7

the second point about having to manually mark yourself incorrect is a huge issue i have as well. it’s silly to argue “just move on” when you get the answer wrong. most people go back, look at the grammar point, type in the corect aswer so they can get a feel for how it is actually used then move on. there’s a random extra step that’s detrimental to a streamlined experience when it would be really easy to just mark it wrong even if you fix it. and as someone with a broken keyboard, i get typing things in wrong, but it still causes really inconistent results especially if i accidentally double click enter out of habit when i know the answer is right.

#8

I, for one, really like the ability to change your answer in Bunpro’s SRS, although it requires a certain level of honesty and self-discipline. As other people have pointed out, language as well as translations are flexible and Bunpro’s ability to hint at the “correct” solution is inherently imperfect. This is especially true if you use this site not just for grammar, but also vocabulary reviews.

With other SRS systems such as Wanikani, I often find myself having to cancel the current review session after fat-fingering an answer or not remembering the specific English word they are looking for (my native language is not English), even if I have a solid grasp of the concept in my mind. I’m genuinely grateful that I don’t have to deal with this on Bunpro, as it can be quite time-consuming and nerve-wracking.

It ultimately comes down to your personal preference, though.

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#9

Yesssss i agree, i was trying to cram the は and が stuff a while ago but it literally just gives you a hint when u get it wrong :sob:

#10

There are a few ways to get an undo button for Wanikani. Note that all involve 3rd party apps/scripts. In a web browser, consider using the Wanikani Double-Check script. On mobile, there are some apps with undo buttons (Tsurukame, Smouldering Durtles, Hakubun, etc.).

However, I agree that the undo button should be a native feature on Wanikani.

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#11

Hi there!
Welcome to the forums and thanks for trying Bunpro.

Another annoying thing is that during reviews, there doesn’t appear to be any way to modify the beginning of your answer, other than deleting and retyping the whole thing.

Yeah unfortunately once you’ve attempted an answer, you can’t modify what you’ve entered.

For example, there doesn’t seem to be any way to start a quiz once you’ve read the pages for three new grammar points using the keyboard. You have to switch to the mouse and click on the dialog which is annoying.

This is a good catch. I’ll make it so that the ‘Quiz Me!’ button gets focused when that popup appears, so that you can just hit Enter to start the Quiz.
This is how it used to be, so this must be a degradation issue.

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#12

I was able to start a quiz just by pressing enter tonight. Thank you!

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#13

I’ve decided to give up completely on Bunpro. It takes a lot of time and effort and doesn’t seem to be helpful, for the reasons I already described previously. Every time I attempt to study grammar, I become more convinced that there’s no effective way to study grammar. Maybe Bunpro would be more useful if you had JLPT style exercises, at least for gaining the ability to pass the JLPT. But the current exercise style doesn’t seem to help for anything.

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#14

It isn’t for everyone. Did you try the setting where you have to just read the sentence and self-grade based on understanding?

In terms of other ways to learn grammar, I actually mostly learn when reading and looking things up when a sentence doesn’t make sense. I’ll look at Bunpro, the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar, 知恵袋 posts, sometimes Imabi, etc. For more basic concepts Tae Kim and Cure Dolly are very popular as well (I don’t like either too much personally though). As I mentioned before at N2 level there is really no substitute for native materials - everything else exists just to support that. You might be ableto scrape a pass on the JLPT from textbooks but you won’t actually understand anything properly. I will also say that any SRS will really only bear fruit after a reasonable amount of time (like months) so if you move to another SRS for grammar (there are even monolingual anki decks for grammar out there which you might like) then it is worth sticking with it for a while. SRS isn’t necessary though, of course.

Anyway, feel free to come back to the forums here to ask questions even if you aren’t actively using Bunpro. If you do find something that works for you then I’d be interested to know what it is - I’m always curious about how other people study.

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#15

Yes

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#16

just to echo what the fox said, SRS only really pays dividends after a meaningful amount of time. I find myself hearing grammar points that appear in my review Q out in the wild in places like my staff room or on the bus for example. I encounter a whole lol of the grammar points in the reading I do as well. My reading speed has honestly more than doubled since finishing N3 and 3/4 of N2 on BP. I’m no longer needing to stop at every little particle to try and riddle it out. The funny thing is, when i see these grammar points, the first thing that pops into my mind is that little bold hint telling me what grammar point bunpro is looking for. From there i instantly have a feel for what the word means and how it interacts with the other elements in the sentence.

I’m far from the most studious person. despite having started BP more than 2 years ago, i have only accumulated 150 days studied on the app. I had about 100 days when I sat the July JLPT. despite the fact that those 100 days were the only grammar study I have ever done, I was able to pass the N3. While it might be annecdotal, there are definitely long term benefits to sticking with an SRS and just trusting the process.

All of that being said, hopefully you find the thing that works for you.

6 Likes
#17

That seems like more of an intensive vs extensive reading thing. Also, it’s hard to see how Bunpro drilling you to type “noni” whenever you see “importance of means” will help you actually understand grammar in the wild.

#18

Not quite, I haven’t changed the way in which I read. The only difference is the speed in which I am able to do it. If you’re referring to the type of material then it also hasnt changed at all. it is the same diary/conversation format text that I was reading before advancing on BP vs after and the only thing that has changed is my reading speed and comprehension. I had previously given up reading them since the grammar was too far above my level despite having the kanji knowledge to understand a lot of it. after completing the N3 and most of N2 levels on BP i tried the exact chapter i had given up on before and completed it in a giffy. I havent even been learning new kanji since then. Literally only one thing changed in the time between those two instances.

odd that you would mention that one specifically, that was one of my leeches for quite a long time. i saw it so frequently that I got sick of it. Now whenever I see or hear it, the importance of means is what pops into my head. the main reason BP emphasizes the importance of means is because one could easily view ために and のに as being completely identical. while both technically mean ‘in order to’ のに puts more emphasis on, you guessed it, the means by which something else is accomplished. Besides, the main hint for that grammar point is ‘in order to’ which appears below the sentence being reviewed and is highlighted in your accent colour. the ‘importance of means’ prompt was added later if i recall correctly. This was done in order to not have people constantly confuse のに reviews for ために reviews. If i recall correctly, that was not always the case and led to quite a few moments of frustration when trying to remember that there was another way besides ために . Once they added that pointer, i was able to compartmentalize のに in a box that was separated from ために by using that as a prompt. now when i want to use either word i try to think what I am trying to emphasize and it lets me know which is more appropriate for the situation. If you are interested in that update and why the unique hint of ‘importance of means’ came about, you can check this link.

https://community.bunpro.jp/t/major-update-hints-31st-july-2022/50394

With regards to your question about how it would help you identify it in the wild. When you are spending time and effort manually typing and retyping answers and you repeat that often enough and over a long enough time frame. You tend to have an easier time picking up on those structures when they do appear. Two examples that come to mind are two N2 items i learnt on BP recently. 尚 and 万が一 I heard the former while riding the bus this morning and understood immediately how it slotted into the announcement. I heard the latter yesterday when one of my colleagues interrupted my conversation with another colleague in order to ask for something which he needed just in case. Both of these are quite low in terms of my SRS progress with them, but i was able to pick up on them after around 5-6 reviews each. Those are just the two most recent examples.

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#19

I’m curious what you were reading so I could try to read it myself and see how hard it is for me.

Also, “万が一” is a funny example because I learned that long ago as a vocabulary word.

Anyway, it’s interesting to hear your perspective, because it feels like you’re coming at things from the exact opposite direction as I assumed everyone would follow.

I’ve long thought that one of the reasons grammar is so hard to learn through immersion is that it is rarely contrastive. You can understand things most of the time without much detailed grammar knowledge, especially once you’ve got the basics down. You can understand a lot just from context, although I sometimes miss nuance and my eyes tend to glaze over if I hit an especially long and complex sentence.

For example, I’ve been reading Kona II on Satori Reader recently. Consider this sentence:

でも、僕のゆきに対する気持ちは何一つ変わらなかった。

From context, it’s already obvious that it means something like “but my feelings about Yuki didn’t change at all”. But without the explanatory note from SR, I wouldn’t have realized that 何一つ means “not a single one” and is specifically used for countable things and that there is a specific nuance that Kona has multiple feelings about Yuki and not a single one of them changed.

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#20

In my personal experience this is an illusion; I’ve had it dispelled multiple times. Obviously you can follow the broadstrokes of something with some basic knowledge and vocab, especially something with a visual element like TV, but I think it is pretty common to “not know what you don’t know” when it comes to grammar/expression. I have Japanese friends who will say なんとなくわかる of English and then when I ask them what it means it turns out they have missed the point. It goes the other way as well. Obviously this is unrelated to how to learn though.

This is a good example of why the concept of “grammar points” is a bit nebulous. I learnt 何一つ as a word/phrase and not as “grammar”. Bunpro, for example, is relatively overkill and lists a lot of things that people might not consider “grammar” but they are things that some people may struggle with as the nuance is not necessarily obvious, especially when compared with similar phrases as on the JLPT. I would probably vote 万が一 as the easiest to learn grammar point on Bunpro though lol

Just on the topic of learning grammar and SRS etc, I think there needs to be a line drawn between learning a grammar point and remembering it. I would argue that SRS should be used purely to remember something, as a reminder that it exists, and act as a context rich anchor from which you can recall the meaning of something when you see it next in real life (as gnome says). The fact that Bunpro has a lot of hints and nudges is fine by me as the point isn’t for me to be perfect during Bunpro reviews, although I try, but rather just to remind me that something exists so that when I next see it in a book or something I either grasp it immediately or I notice it and go look it up. It is when reading (or whatever) that the actual learning happens. I only mention this since I guess it is possible to approach Bunpro/SRS as a place to learn grammar as a whole which, even as someone who broadly likes Bunpro, I think is not a good method (personally).

I thought more about your situation and finding “grammar” to be a sticking point and I guess it may just be a case of needing to read/listen more to get things to stick and experience them in context in the wild? I can’t say because I don’t know your study habits but I can say that the gap between each N-level is basically double the previous one, in my experience. I think this is why lots of people get to N4/N3 and then stop learning or stagnate as you need to do basically all the effort of N5 to N3 again to get to N2 and then all the effort of N5 to N2 to get to N1 (and then all the effort of up to N1 to actually become okay at the language). If the goal is to consume Japanese TV or something and not to pass the JLPT then I also wouldn’t beat yourself up over “grammar” that doesn’t stick due to not being used to seeing it as clearly it isn’t important for whatever you are using the language for.

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