@xBl4ck I did not take it that way at all! Thank you for providing such excellent feedback. It is always appreciated. Cheers!
1 Like
After writing and editing this multiple times I really feel like Iβm missing something here, since so much of the grammar point is seemingly included in other ones already. Soβ¦ proceed with caution? 
__
The grammar point γ¦γγγͺγγ»γ¦γγγγͺγ contains too much information in my opinion. While the included grammar points do have similar meaning, they are created in different ways (Problem being you have to understand multiple different concepts to learn one item and theyβre all quizzed on the same interval)
It seems to contain γ¦γγγͺγ, γ¦γγγγͺγ, γ¦γγγ, γ¦γγγγ, γͺγγ§γγγ and γͺγγ§γγγγ
My attempt to explain thingies:
I am not sure why these are in there:
as γ¦γγγ is itβs own grammar point.
While γ¦γγγͺγοΌ and γ¦γγγγͺγ? are similar requests, one is formed with the potential form and the other isnt. Granted, this isnβt a 100% reason to pull these apart, but it has been done for less with other grammar points and I like that a lot. Cramming too much into the same srs interval usually isnt a good thing.
It feels better to group " ~γ¦γγγ γγΎγγγ" with β~γ¦γγγγΎγγγβ since they belong together and seperate β~γ¦γγγͺγοΌ/~γ¦γγγΎγγγβ from those two.
Edit:
Just realized βVerb[ γ¦ ] + γγγγΎγγγ»γβ is already part of ~γ¦γγγ γγΎγγγ? Why is it here again? I feel like Iβm missing something 
Is it only because of the γͺγοΌ ending?
Also, i feel like γ¦γγγγ shouldnβt be included here because, while it carries similar meaning, it feels different from the ~γͺγοΌ/~γΎγγγ ones. Canβt really explain that one, other than that itβs formed differently, soβ¦ ? 
Though Iβm not sure if γ¦γγγγ would deserve a grammar point on itβs own, since its just γ¦γγγ in the potential formβ¦ 
Edit:
Thereβs also γͺγγ§γγγοΌ (and probably γͺγγ§γγγγ?) crammed in there. Kind of feels like these combined deserve a grammar point on their own as well.
All of this is probably a lot of work and not an ideal solution yet either, but the γ¦γγγͺγγ»γ¦γγγγͺγ grammar point feels really overloaded the way it is right now.
3 Likes
@xBl4ck Thank you for providing this very detailed analysis! When we created these grammar points we intended to juxtapose the casual request γ¦γγγͺγγ»γ¦γγγγͺγ with the polite/humble request γ¦γγγ γγΎγγγ»γ¦γγγγΎγγ. In both of these instances, γ¦γγγͺγ and γ¦γγγ γγΎγγ are the focus of these grammar points with the γγγγͺγγ»γΎγγ versions taking the role of an alternative.
Since γͺγγ§ is simply the negative γ¦ form, it still falls under the structure guidelines for these grammar points and may not require a separate grammar point.
That being said, we agree that these points could use another look. In the meantime, I have updated the structures and replaced the γ¦γγγ and γ¦γγγγ examples with their negative γ¦γγγͺγ and γ¦γγγγ to hopefully reduce some clutter. Thanks again for drawing this to our attention. Cheers!
5 Likes
Is this Japanese sentence actually valid?
If it is, I feel like the English doesnβt reflect it very well. It comes across to me more like, βeven if that happens every timeβ (with the βevenβ coming from γ).
βNo matter what happensβ would be something more like γ©γγγ¦γ, wouldnβt it? I donβt see how γγ could translate to anything other than βthatβ here.
1 Like
Hey 
we have replaced the example 
Thanks for noticing it!
2 Likes
This one confused me a bit, because both the hint at the bottom and the yellow text seemingly suggest that youβre supposed to answer βI have to ~β, even though youβre only supposed to answer βdont memorize in advanceβ
1 Like
Hey 
verb[negative] + γ¨γγγͺγ is another construction that means βmustβ.
I have changed it to γγΌγγ¦γγγͺγγ¦γ―γγγͺγ since, there is no γ¨γγγͺγ lesson yet.
Cheers!
3 Likes
Ah, yeah, I figured that much because it follows the βif you donβt it wont be goodβ-pattern.
What confused me a bit is that usually, mostly everything in yellow is part of what youβll have to type in. Those few that have part of the answer already typed in tend to slow me down a bit.
Then again, it was during my morning review session and the hint added some to the confusion, so itβs probably fine now that itβs gone 
2 Likes
So Iβm assuming I just donβt understand this sentence. Why is it γγͺγ at the end? βBecomeβ wanting to take a bath. Is there something I donβt understand about the γ«γͺγ/γγͺγ grammar point? Or does it have to do with γ¨γ (the actual grammar point for this sentence)?
@MissDagger Hi! This is the combination of Verb[γγ] and γͺγ. We have ε
₯γγγ, βwant to enterβ and γͺγ, βto reach a stateβ or βbecome.β When Verb[γγ] and γͺγ are combined they behave similarly to γ-adjectives in the same combination and become Verb γγγγͺγ. Therefore, ε
₯γγγγͺγ literally means βTo reach a state of wanting to enter.β Since γι’¨εγ«ε
₯γ means βto take a bath,β the translation is closer to βI reach the point of wanting to take a bath.β
γγ β γγγ β γγγγͺγ
To do β to want to do β to reach the point of wanting to do
ι£γΉγ β ι£γΉγγ βι£γΉγγγͺγ
To eat β To want to eat β To reach the state of wanting to eat (to get hungry).
Hereβs some additional information. Hope this helps. Cheers!
3 Likes
Ah, I see. I was wondering what γͺγ could add to already wanting to do something. But it is about when that wanting is reached. So basically, (when it is cold,) it/cold makes me want to take a bath (/reach the point of wanting to take a bath).
2 Likes
For γγγ«, Iβm reading that γ― is optional (γγγ«γ―) from DAJG though I see no mention in the BP entry. Other sources indicate the γ― add an emphasis. I also may suggest adding βdespiteβ and βconsideringβ as a meaning entry which is helping me.
2 Likes
Hi again,
A question about this review itemβ¦
Why is my answer wrong when itβs just like the 2nd one shown in the βStructureβ area?
Is that a mistake in the item? Should that also be correct?
@s1212z Thank you for providing this information! I have updated the meaning page as well as alternative answers for all γγγ« review questions. Cheers!
@GregX999 Thank you for your comment. While not necessarily incorrect, there is a slight difference in meaning and wording that makes γγ―γγγ¦γγγ¨γγ a little unnatural here. γγ―γγγ¦γγγ¨γγ means: βjust when I was starting to studyβ and γγ―γγγγ¨γγ means :βhave just started studying.β These phrases are perfectly fine by themselves, but if we add γγ€γ (Whenever) into the mix we get: βWhenever I was just starting to studyβ and βWhenever I have just started studyingβ respectively. Just how in English, it sounds a little unnatural to say: βWhenever I was just starting to studyβ rather than βWhenever I am just about to start studying,β it sounds a little unnatural in Japanese. That being said, I have added a warning for this answer rather than marking you incorrect. Cheers!
3 Likes
I feel like γͺγγ and γͺγγ grammar points should be linked in the βrelatedβ section, as theyβre pretty much the same thing.
Seems a bit weird that sources like Tae Kim tell you to remember that βγγͺγγγ only applies to positive verbsβ instead of teaching it together with γͺγγ, so maybe it deserves a mention as a note in the grammar point?
1 Like
Hi,
Although my auto renewal is currently off (and has been since I stopped using Bunpro a few weeks ago), I have just been charged for the next month.
Could someone please look into this?
Thanks.
2 Likes
I straightened everything out and reversed the charge. I will take a look at what might have caused it. Sorry for the trouble!
2 Likes
If I fail an item in the βQuiz Meβ bit at the end of the 3 lessons you get in the βStudyβ mode, do those items become Ghosts? Because I failed a couple this time and would like them to become ghosts so I can review how/why I got those ones wrong and try and understand/remember the grammar point more.
Right now they do not. One work around might be to go to the grammar point page for the grammar you want to drill extra and reset it and then review it through reviews once more. You will get a new sentence, but also get a little extra practice.
I will put this on our list to make sure we look more into it in the near future.
3 Likes
A manual add/remove ghost button would be lovely in general.
7 Likes