Frustration - is it just me?

Bunpro
#1

I’ve posted this in one of the other sections, the specific topic thread, but I’ll cross-post here if it’s okay because I would like some feedback.

There is something that I find a little frustrating about bunpro.

I want to learn the details and specifics of words/kanji/grammar, but then I read an N5 sentence where the translation is “the gist” of the meaning rather than a more precise translation, and there is nothing to indicate this.

[specifically talking about "学生たちは先生の話も聞きます。

The students listen to the teachers also."

What is の話 doing in this sentence? It doesn’t seem to appear in the translation.]

I already knew hanashi as story/talk/tale, so I could infer that the actual translation should be more along the lines of “what the teachers are saying”, but bunpro doesn’t indicate this. If this were a sentence with unfamiliar words or grammar then I would be lost if I tried to use it to learn from. I would be more likely to pick up bad habits.

There are other apps, such as kanjistudy or elon.io that use example sentences but also allow the reader to click on each individual word to find out what purpose it serves in the sentence, in terms of meaning and syntax.

I am still in the 30-day trial period before deciding whether to buy, but I am wondering if bunpro is the one for me.

#2

(だれかの)話を聞く is like an idiom that means “to listen to what someone has to say”. Without it, the sentence 学生たちは先生も聞きます is a bit vague. Are the students asking the teacher something? Are they listening to the teacher? Are they obeying some instructions? The の話 makes it clear what is going on.

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#3

I agree that this what is said in the Japanese, but it is not made clear in the English translation nor in Bunpro’s explanation.

A deeper knowledge of Japanese is needed to understand this, beyond what the Bunpro translation is teaching.

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#4

Hopefully I can provide a little clarity here! First thing’s first though, thanks for giving Bunpro a try.

To address your confusion regarding the translation, I agree that it could be a little more precise, particularly reflecting the nuance of の話. Something like “Students also listen to the teachers conversation”.

Moving onto the “why” behind the current translation. While we have guidelines for our translation process, we have real humans doing the translation of these example sentences. We do this for tens of thousands of example sentences. Due to that, there is room for occasional human error, or in this case a more general translation.

In regards to a feature that allows you to parse out a sentence, we do offer that to some degree on our grammar vocab sentences. You can click on a piece of grammar that appears within a grammar point example sentence, then go to that page and read more about it. I believe the reason this has not been implemented on a much larger scale is because we want to make sure everything we put out is high-quality and reviewed, so implementing a tool that breaks down tens of thousands of sentences may not be practical. However, it is definitely something the team can discuss to see if we can come up with more effective tools for parsing out sentences!

One last point I’ll make is that there is no single resource to use for Japanese. I would encourage finding what works best for you and using that. It will probably end up being a variety of resources! Every tool has it’s strong points. The one thing I will mention about Bunpro, is we do not throw out any raw, unfiltered AI-generated content. We have a human team behind everything we put out. The first thing that I saw when I looked at the Japanese course you linked to was “This course was AI generated”. That is not the case with Bunpro. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to you!

Sorry if that got a little long-winded! In summary, sorry for the slightly imprecise translation (if you link the exact grammar/vocabulary it is used in I can update the translation for you), we may not have the specific tool you are looking for, but it is something our team will definitely discuss, and we want to help you figure out what works best when it comes to your studies. Also, if you find any inconsistencies with translations, please feel free to submit feedback regarding them and we can help straighten things out!

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#5

Thanks for the detailed response!

I agree with you, I am finding that there is no single resource that covers everything I want. It’s a question of finding the best combo :slight_smile:

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#6

I’ve found that there are a lot of instances in both English and Japanese where one form of the same sentence is a bit condensed or expanded for whatever reason, such as the example you’ve given

Usually I just make a note of the difference but try and focus on the specific vocab word or grammar point instead. As a native English speaker, there are many instances where I’ll say something and not know the exact reason something is said a specific way (Like, off the top of my head, the phrase “Jim took off running”. Nobody ever explained this specific term, but I know it and I can feel Jim’s energy it when I read it, but thinking about it from a non native stand point, it makes no sense.) So I think picking up the rhythm and feel of a language is a bit broader than the scope of Bunpro, which focuses specifically on individual grammar points. I would suggest Satori Reader if you really want a ‘whole picture’ language/context experience, but Bunpro can’t be beat for really hammering out grammar.

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#7

As someone who only uses the reading mode whenever it’s available, I can feel you. I started here with N5 grammar and am now on the finish line of N4 (grammar and vocab) everything done in reading mode.

From my experience: yes, it’s frustrating, especially in the beginning, but you get used to it and it’s great prep for reading native materials.

How well you can deal with this kind of frustration is something you have to judge for yourself, but in my opinion, if you don’t learn to deal with it here, you’ll have to deal with it somewhere else. There is no way to skip this frustration completely, but stuff like satori reader or beginner bookclubs (haven’t tried the tools you mentioned) can make it a bit less frustrating.

Keep us updated which tools work for you! :slight_smile:

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#8

As Chimmsen as already said, no matter what tool you are going to be using the bad, or insufficient, translations are going to exist. And that is assuming you do not get straight up rewrites. So many anime these days are straight up rewrites.

Anime rewrites have been such a problem for me that I do not trust any translations, no matter where they come from. I just focus on the singular thing that I am suppose to be learning from any particular lesson.

So in BunPro, grammar lessons, for example, I only ever pay attention to the clues in the blank space, and the red text in the translation.

But I am particularly good at piecing context clues together while willing to admitting to my failures. Which prevents me from getting stuck on a “correct” answer. As a result, I find I can make this style work for me.

So yeah, find the things and ways that work for you and keep in mind your own abilities and limits.

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#9

So true :sweat_smile: I watch a lot of anime with friends, and depending on who is there, we use subtitles in english or german. I noticed that sometimes the subtitle translations differ so much, that they become complete opposits of each other, making it totally unclear what’s actually meant. They also oftentimes have different subjects, as japanese omit those and the translators just seem to guess and come up with different interpretations. Who was this sentence about? Ask 2 translators, get 5 answers, I guess?

So if this even happens in professional settings, it seems to me, that this is just how it is and the frustration actually can’t ever be fixed as it’s inherent and even japanese people would discuss about it.

Though that was probably quite tangential to the original question :sweat_smile:

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#10

Thank you to everyone for your responses, they are all appreciated.

I am continuing to use my Bunpro trial because i don’t want to make a final judgement until i have given it a proper go.

I am finding that I agree with the user above (sorry my phone won’t let me scroll up to find your name while I am typing!) who says to just focus on the example in front of you and let everything else wash over you.

By doing this, I am reinforcing the bits that I need to focus and improve upon, and maybe the other bits will come in time.

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#11

Well, I don’t have much to say beyond what people here has offered. But my Japanese journey has been pretty much “accept this thing and that thing in Japanese” rather than trying deeply to understand it in your own language.

Trying to remember and learn it by phrases is also very good way to learn Japanese.

I’m at the end of N2 journey and touching N1 teritory and I can tell you it’s going to be many more frustrations to come because Japanese is simply not English, or any other language. Try to learn it as-is, and everything will clear up by itself once you have enough knowledge.

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#12

I enjoy learning languages. I have GCSE French and A Level Latin, and I am very much interested in learning the nuts and bolts of grammar and syntax.

I want to know how to fish, rather than have someone buy me a fish, so I can understand the fundamental rules and so I can apply them myself to new situations.

I don’t mind if the rules are then broken, but I want to know and understand which rules are being ignored.

I find it frustrating when I am just told to accept something without being told why.

It’s a similar situation with “kariru + kara/ni” on another thread I started. If there is no difference in usage between the two, then tell me there is no difference. Don’t use both and not explain it and leave me wondering about missing the nuance.

I appreciate Bunpro for the SRS hammering the same grammar points home, but definitely room for improvement in the teaching.

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#13

I hate to bring the Oracle into the picture, but I have found that utilizing AI does fill in a lot of the gaps when it comes to language learning. Explaining how every word in a sentence works is such a laborious task, as I have had tutoring sessions where I spent an hour explaining one passage to very curious and inquiring students. AI has been instrumental in sentence breakdowns, vocab usage explanations, and collocations. Three things that I feel are not easily found in Japanese learning materials.

It’s not always accurate, but I do utilize ChatGPT when I need additional information on a sentence and word usage. Also using the API built into Migaku when creating flashcards. Of course, the best option would be to have a Japanese expert at your side, but very few of us can afford that luxury. Regardless, I will always try to find a real world example first.

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#14

As others have pointed out, translations vary widely and often the most literal translation is unnatural. The languages don’t map well 1-to-1. This problem will likely get worse as you advance. I’ve gotten used to reading despite not entirely understand what I’ve just read. I think time and daily effort into Japanese will sort this out on its own. Just keep making progress even if things aren’t 100% clear. I also encourage you to use something like yomitan as a reading aid as you’ll likely graduate to using yomitan anyways to read stuff elsewhere. Eventually you’ll be able to “think in Japanese” and the lack of 1-to-1 translations will no longer bother you. But to get there will require many repetitions, not just a deep understanding. Not everything requires a deep understanding either, there are many things in my native language that are products of repetition which I have no real understanding of. TLDR: Getting mentally agitated is naturally when you’re learning. Just stay the course. Keep reading.

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