Getting better at Bunpro, but not at using grammar

Japanese
#1

At the end of last year I had almost completed all N3 grammar points, but thought there was no way I really ‘knew’ them and probably forgot half of them even existed, so I reset them all (or removed and reset once I get to it) and have been doing the whole N3 again. About 2/3’s of the way through again now.

I’m doing ok on reviews (not going to talk about my abysmal vocab review scores), but the trouble is whenever I speak to my tutor or at a chat group (1/week) I just cant bring that grammar into use. I keep using the same old simple stuff I feel I have been using for a year. I realize that part of this is going to be down to the fact that in simple conversation you may only need use N5/N4 grammar majority of the time. However sometimes while I am speaking (or coming up with the sentence in my head as I speak) I think “oh there’s some grammar I have learnt that could convey this” but damned if I can remember exactly what is is or how to use it. Or I just don’t even think about them and struggle around trying to convey my message with the real basic stuff which feels like it hasn’t changed in years.

Yeah part of this is a “I cant see myself getting better” whinge, but with some specifics. What can I do to utilize these more outside of Bunpro so they actually start sticking.

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#2

What does your immersion look like? Sounds like you need to be exposed to more input of these grammar points in order to properly output.

Perhaps look at some anki decks to do more sentence drilling.
Here’s a deck that’s just sentences focusing on grammar points used in them:
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/843402109

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#3

make a point of using that grammar in short stories or a daily log of sorts. you just need practice with the newer grammar points so start with forced use in a log and after that youll find yourself grasping for them during actual conversation/ natural use

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#4

Has speaking been your only output so far? I know some people swear by writing as a way of getting output practice without the real-time pressures of speaking. Maybe writing your own Japanese sentences would help get you some more practice?

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#5

Has speaking been your only output so far? I know some people swear by writing as a way of getting output practice without the real-time pressures of speaking. Maybe writing your own Japanese sentences would help get you some more practice?

Surely this would help, it even helps in your native language. Writing a lot gives you time to reinforce more complex sentence structures and grammar. I’d definitely try it!

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#6

I’ve had the same issue and still struggle with this. I think writing your own sentences using the grammar point really helps them to stick. Keeping a diary is great too because when you talk to your tutor/friend and want to tell them about what you’ve been up to you, you already have written it about it in a more complex way than you can make up on the spot. Output, output and more output

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#7

Writing seems like an easy to implement solution. With time constraints I have generally avoided writing as its the lowest priority of learning for me (top is speaking & listening, then reading), but putting in some slower thought-out output could be better than just hoping its going to happen when I’m speaking.

As for Anki, I’ve tried it a few times and just cant get into it. Could have been the decks or setting of course.

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#8

A word for this is active vs passive vocabulary (or active and passive grammar)
I googled “how to increase active vocabulary”

  1. read the bunpro grammar page(I’ll use 折角)
  2. this grammar has two different types with and without の
  3. make a self study sentence about your life for each type
    ____日本に来たのに京都行かなかった。
    Despite going all the way to Japan, (we) didn’t go to Kyoto
    (My family came to Japan this summer, and we didn’t go to Kyoto)
    ____のど真ん中祭り踊りましょう!
    Let’s dance at the long awaited domanaka matsuri!
    (The biggest dance festival I dance at)

Which is the same answer as everyone else (write more)
When speaking remember to actually use it. I would probably say
日本に来たけど京都行かなかった。 and
結局ど真ん中祭り踊りましょう! the meaning is close enough.

“I can’t see myself getting better” is different. Maybe do more speaking practice if you want to improve speaking:
You can shadow shadow
or talk to your self Japanese to get better at speaking. Like when you spill something say “しまった” or yell at videogames/shows in Japanese.
Or you can change how you measure ‘good at Japanese’.
read and excitedly point out all of the vocab/grammar you recognize from bunpro.

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#9

This is basically what I was thinking. I was considering using ChatGPT or Bunpou.check to get immediate feedback on simple single sentences using each grammar point

#10

In my experience the solution is time and more exposure to the grammar in natural settings. Things can be somewhat forced from passive to active (that’s what speaking practice is) however generally if I can’t produce something without thinking then I am simply not familiar enough with the thing in question. At N3 level I would say it is normal to not be able to produce sentences without a lot of effort and plenty of errors. Perhaps it is possible to throw around some well-trodden phrases by that point but in terms of spontaneous and fluent output it just won’t happen. This is my experience, at least.

As a rule of thumb if I cannot understand something without thinking about it then it is quite unlikely I will be able to produce it. Can you completely understand, without thought or mental translation, the kind of sentences you want to produce when spoken at full speed? If not then work on getting to that point. This is my personal rule, at least.

I would also suggest trying to enjoy your output as much as possible. If you are socialising and just hanging out in Japanese then you aren’t worried about what you can and can’t say properly. If you enjoy writing stories then try that. If you keep a diary then try that. Etc. At first topics will be limited but just keep showing up and you’ll get there. These kind of topics are very much a “different strokes for different folks” kinda thing so my ultimate advice would be to find something you enjoy and/or will stick with and do that. Be patient and just keep going!

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#11

Understanding the colours available on the palette does not make you a great artist. Painting does. The same applies with grammar/using a language. Don’t worry, as time passes you will gradually begin to use what you’ve learnt.

Just trust the process. I found that there was always a delay between me learning a structure and it settling into my mind as something that I can use in conversation.

Also, you don’t need to memorise every single point at first. There’s plenty of stuff I’ve forgotten, and I use the language daily. I just think of that stuff as not being useful since I don’t come across it day to day.

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#12

Just adding to everyone’s advice about writing more, I’ve found “HelloTalk” really helpful. I usually choose 3 grammar points I’ve recently studied or made a mistake on during reviews, then try to write 2 or 3 example sentences using each grammar point on the “moments” section. You get instant feedback from native Japanese people with corrections and whether or not you’ve properly understood the nuance of the grammar point!

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#13

Everyone here has good advice on making active use of the language to more naturally get what you learn to stick. I think that writing is a good way to do this but I haven’t seen anyone talk about listening yet. That seems more relevant considering you are trying to speak more fluently.

You mention that speaking/listening is your top priority, and I don’t know exactly what your whole routine is for learning so I’ll say this at the risk of telling you something basic. Probably the easiest (but most time consuming) way to get grammar and vocab to stick is to hear it being used all the time. There are a lot of Japanese language podcasts, or native media if you are ready, to dive into.

The “downside” of this is that not all of the stuff you hear will be relevant to your specific learning target (N3, I assume) but that’s not actually an issue if your main goal is fluency. It’s also not particularly an issue if you don’t fully understand what is being said yet. I think the actually most important skill when it comes to learning is to be used to and ok with not knowing things yet.

My advice is to do everything you can stand to do in a day. Grind Bunpro and/or Wanikani, listen to podcasts on your way to work/school or just on a walk. Write a sentence or two with new grammar. Language learning is a lot less of a structured affair than people make it to be.

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#14

Can relate to the topic very much. I will have to get back to writing again. As I’d told my husband yesterday, I have been spending more hours the past few days researching our next trip to Japan vs on my Bunpro and Wanikani reviews and lessons. :sweat_smile:

As for listening to podcasts, there’s so much I can’t pick up or pick out (due to speed and complexity) that it becomes boring and frustrating. I’ve tried watching some beginner videos and their speed put me to sleep. Watching the Kaiju No. 8 series held my interest and I just enjoyed it without making it into lessons. I did pick up りょう /roger because they kept repeating it and a few days later it was a Wanikani lesson for 了解 so that was great reinforcement and timing. I’m not criticizing anyone’s advice here. Just saying what has worked and not worked for me as I have the same issue as the OP. His saying that at N3, he reverts back to N5/N4 is actually encouraging for me as I need to work towards mastering N5 and N4.

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#15

I’ll share my more detailed thoughts on the topic.

There seems to be two main schools of thought when it comes to language learning. The first is that the way is obsessive study and grinding numbers. These people tend to gamify the process, and it makes sense that the Bunpro forums has a lot of this kind of person. The second school of thought is that jumping straight into native material and immersion is the way. These kinds of people tend to just have faith in the vibes and don’t feel the need to quantify their progress. Both kinds of people are terrified of the other.

The real difference here is between explicit and tacit knowledge. One is objective, reasoned and explainable. The other is subjective and known intuitively. One is intellectual comprehension, and the other is the vibes.

I think the truth is that you need both.

As opposed to being two competing schools of thought, I think they are complimentary schools of thought. Everyone should consider both and take from both what they think can help them. (This is just dialectics in practice)

As for podcasts, if you they frustrate you, I think the issue may more be mindset than the content. I’ve noticed that since I’ve started listening a few hours a day, I can more keep up with the pace, even if I don’t know what the words themselves mean yet. The feeling you get when you recognize a word or phrase for the first time is really addicting. Like you can feel the neurons connecting (exaggeration, of course. Or maybe not?). The ones I listen to slip in some pretty funny and strange stuff into the dialogue on occasion, which are a lot of fun to realize and then laugh at.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that recognizing very little in text/audio is actually a good thing, because it means that media has a lot to teach you. In my opinion, that perspective is more valuable for learning than becoming frustrated or discouraged by that same situation.

I’ve blathered for long enough. Obviously changing your mindset isn’t done in a day. And obviously it might just straight up not work for you. But I encourage everyone to try as much different stuff as possible, and to not feel bad when you do not know, but actually feel good because that means you have the opportunity to learn more.

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#16

“Terrified” wouldn’t be the word I’d describe anyone here.
I WISH I could just watch a show and learn the language. I WISH I could just listen to a podcast and pick up grammar. But I’ve tried it and the brain doesn’t work that way. My time is also limited so I’ll just use it on things that work for me.

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#17

Appreciate all the replies! I’m sure there helpful for a lot of people by the sounds of it.

I have made sure to include about 40-60 minutes of Active listening to Japanese podcasts over the last year (in the car to/from work) and have definitely noticed an improvement in my listening. Native conversation is often way too difficult, so I’m still listening to podcasts targeted at learners and around N3/intermediate material.

I have seen hello talk but not tried it, but either way I will certainly be adding some sort of writing output to my studies after this.

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#18

I would bet money, you are improving but you just don’t realize it. try listening to podcasts you’ve listened to in the past. you’ll recognize a little more than you did last time. listen to it again and again, look up more words each time. I bet you that you’re doing much better than you think.

#19

Yeah that’s totally fine. For reference, when you were listening, how long did you spend on it a day, and how often did you do it?

I don’t ask for any nefarious or evil purposes. I’m just interested in this topic and have been asking a lot of people to get a feel for what is effective.

#20

Inspiring post from 3 days ago on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/1f2emez/trust_the_immersion_process_trust_your_brain/

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