かえって（却って) grammar point translations are kind of obnoxious

Bunpro
#1

so I do tend to find bunpro’s example sentence translations a bit stilted but I generally don’t mind - it doesn’t always quite do it for me but I am aware that a fair chunk of folks prefer a more, “literal” structure so they can see where the parts go. That said, the かえって translations are so stilted that I find them distracting and find that it’s actually somewhat difficult to figure out what the vibe of this phrase is when like, a normal human being says it. The grammar point anchors itself in “on the contrary” and “all the more” and these work in some cases, but phrases like “actually” and “instead” often end up feeling far more natural and seem to fit the sample sentences better - in fact, the lesson specifically does note that “instead” is a valid translation of the phrase, and frequently uses “actually” paired with other, more stilted terminology.

e.g.:

image
image839×215 24 KB

why the “stepping back from it”? I know the point is to illustrate how かえって creates distance, but “actually” already accomplishes this same thing in English. Adding this extra phrase meant I needed to step back myself and look at what かえって was actually doing.

image
image789×127 12.3 KB

This sentence feels like it’s made a total mess of itself to accommodate “on the contrary” when “instead” and/or “actually” would do the job just fine -
“I actually become less motivated when I’m told to ‘do it!’”
“When someone tells me, ‘Do it!’, I (actually) feel less motivated (instead).”

I know why these more stilted constructions are stuck to so steadfastly - other than this maybe working better for some people’s brains, it’s also in service to ensuring people can build an association which helps them get the right answer. However, I feel like the English language can only take so much strain before I start to go, “okay, what is the actual English equivalent that a normal person would say in a normal conversation?” And I don’t think you even need “less literal” translations to make this work, just different anchoring points that are more versatile and natural. I know this is fairly nitpicky overall, and type of thing rarely bugs me, but for this specific grammar point it’s just been driving me crazy.

14 Likes
#2

Hi @ultigonio, and thanks for getting in touch!

For the translations, we have a few different approaches that we try to be consistent about through all of the different grammar points. First, in the description portion, we usually try to include an example of a very literal translation just for illustration purposes. We do this because we don’t want the English in the actual example sentence page to be too over the top. We can describe the nuance in the explanation part, so we save it for there.

Second, while there absolutely are easier ways to say many things, translating them all as the easiest option usually creates more rather than less mental load, due to it increasing the amount of synonyms/need to rely on hints. Basically, there are many many ways to say ‘actually’ in Japanese, so to differentiate かえって, we pick something from English that’s roughly on the same formality level. This is to create some level of familiarity with the situations that it could be used in. For example:

かえって = usually used for emphasis/can be on the formal side.
On the contrary = usually used for emphasis/can be on the formal side.
Actually = Used for just about anything.

The matching up of formality is what helps separate 5 potentially very similar grammar points when it comes to the task of learning as a stand alone entity. If this were pure translation, and not directed at trying to reinforce/encourage remembering certain patterns, then ‘actually’ would be/probably is quite often used. This doesn’t mean that ‘actually’ or ‘rather’ are more correct in those translations though, it just means that the translator wanted to create a smooth reading experience for the reader.

What I’m trying to say is that as a teaching tool, sometimes us using stilted translations to force a point is done because we trust the user to unravel it back down to the simplest English. That way they have the tools to then make their own judgements about the level of formality/nuance when they encounter the structure again in real reading.

11 Likes
#3

I’m not saying that “actually” or “instead” are more accurate translations, or that I don’t see the purpose of the intentionally stilted language. It’s more that I find, for this specific entry in particular, that this specific phrasing is way too stilted for me to understand the actual level of formality. I don’t really use “on the contrary” in English unless I’m being a bit obnoxious on purpose - in my opinion, “on the contrary” isn’t just slightly formal - it’s somewhat stuffy, and I think the translations that use it make that difficult to ignore, or they make it sound like the thought is being continued from some off-screen context, which… doesn’t seem to be the same as what かえって is doing? Referring back to the “I’ll lose motivation” translation above, it almost sounds like there’s more that the English is continuing off from - as if there was a first sentence which read something like, “I don’t feel any more motivated when I’m pushed around.” These two things in concert make this grammar point harder to parse for me than most I’ve encountered through bunpro first.

we trust the user to unravel it back down to the simplest English.

So my problem with this, vaguely in general (I know this varies between user) but mainly when applied to this specific case, is that if the gap between “stilted translation” and “natural phrasing” is too wide, I’ll feel like I don’t understand what the use case is for this word when I don’t know how natural/formal it would actually sound coming out of my mouth. Obviously a big part of knowing how natural a word is is just to listen to/read a lot of actual Japanese rather than relying on a grammar website - in fact, most of the time I see new grammar I already know the phrase anyway from repeated exposure, and bunpro’s just helping me polish up my understanding, and this formula means I don’t really spend a lot of time overthinking the more strange translations, because I already know what they should “feel” like. But even with that, I think that bunpro still generally does better on this front by using parenthesized “anchors” while still leaving somewhat more natural English elsewhere in the sentence, allowing users to both parse the tone of the sentence and have that anchor helping them tell which specific phrase is being requested.

Having had exposure to resources of both types, I still think I ultimately prefer it when I read a sentence in Japanese, go, “is that suppose to have this sort of vibe?”, and can check a relatively clear translation to confirm/deny - obviously, that’s not perfect, no reliance on translation would be, but I just find thinking in stilted English to be increasingly more challenging the more intense it gets. Ultimately, though, I’ll likely just shrug my shoulders on this one and move on - by now I’ve read so many example sentences for this specific word that I think I get the picture well enough anyway.

2 Likes
#4

they make it sound like the thought is being continued from some off-screen context, which… doesn’t seem to be the same as what かえって is doing?

That is what かえって is doing. With no context the Japanese sentence also sounds like it is referring to something previously said. かえって is pretty close to “on the contrary”/“conversely”/other similar phrases in English and is most often seen in a well thought out argument or something rather than just when speaking off the top of your head. Compare the usage with 逆に and むしろ.

I am a native English speaker and I think the second example you brought up (with “on the contrary”) is not only fine but also actually good. Just my opinion.

6 Likes
#5

I was with you in regards to the first example sentence, since saying “stepping back from it” sounds stiff (and perhaps that’s the way かえって sounds in Japanese, idk), but saying “on the contrary” would be ideal in my opinion, since it’s something you see frequently.

The only problem I have with the second example sentence is the fact that the BunPro team decided to flip the translation when it would actually sound more natural to say it exactly the way it was said in Japanese. As in:

“If someone says “do it”, on the contrary, I’ll lose motivation.”

That to me sounds more natural, but that might just be me :man_shrugging:t3:.

4 Likes
#6

Agree 100% for this. Unfortunately I am not always somewhere where I can change an English sentence straight away, but I almost always do when I notice that the English sentence order is different than the Japanese for no real reason at all. I just fixed this one!

This is actually also a really good translation that is about the same level of formality. I’ll add it to the defaults for かえって.

I think part of the issue is the two things that you mentioned here. You are absolutely right that it sounds formal and stuffy, and you are also right that it’s hard to understand if it’s not something that you would actually use yourself. The reason we give the formal/stuffy translation is because the grammar point itself sounds that way too (sometimes). Unfortuantely, like English, the phrases that people use and the level of formality that they consider them will be different from person to person.

Thanks a lot for sharing your concerns about this. Finding a balance between what is literal, what is natural, and even what is natural for each person on a case by case basis is something that we are always trying to improve.

7 Likes
#7

You guys are awesome!

Thanks for being open to suggestions, when reasonable (since there have been times I feel people ask unreasonable things from you), it’ll only make BunPro that much better than it already is :+1:.

3 Likes
#8

I’m also a native English speaker and think the second example is fine, word-choice-wise… it’s only the comma being in the wrong place that makes it sound off. It should be “On the contrary, I’ll lose motivation if someone says ‘do it!’”

There are a lot of places on the site where commas are used incorrectly in English, and it’s a bit annoying

6 Likes
#9

I haven’t gotten to this grammar point yet, but I just want to say that I appreciate @ultigonio 's original post, as well as the discussion that followed, and especially @Asher 's explanations (about how BP team tries to hone things, depending on tone/formality and other factors) and response to concerns.

Great discussion all around! Even if it doesn’t immediately affect me (yet), it gives me a lot of confidence that BP team is ‘on the ball’:

  1. listens to customers, and this in turn
  2. encourages customers to take the time and effort to write up their concerns, and this leads to
  3. resolving such concerns (as much as is reasonably possible), leading to
  4. satisfied, happier customers, and thus
  5. more successful BunPro, which of course means
  6. more people successfully learning Japanese grammar (and vocab)!

:grinning:

Just thought I’d share my enthusiasm! :sweat_smile:

6 Likes
#10

Although it feels stilted, I personally think it’s important to write it like that so I can see the literal meaning. I feel like the best situation would be to write a more literal translation, with a more natural translation underneath? But that would creat a huge workload to get that in.

Maybe being able to write your own translations that show up underneath would work? Then everyone could write a translation that makes sense to them, and if they speak another language other than english, they could write the translation into their language too!

5 Likes
#11

You’re onto something here! I was imagining that instead of each current Grammar discussion happening in separate forum threads like it does now (not sure if it’s already linked under each grammar point, though), the vision I had is similar to Hinative, where the best translation gets to be on top after many positive votes from users, and other users could also contribute translations in their native languages below them. All these are happening in “click to expand” threads, of course.

Then, instead of overloading the BP team with the extra translation tasks, they could just oversee and give each of the top translations the “verified” sign, for example, by a native Japanese BP team. I could foresee some BP users being excited to contribute on top of the existing translations as a practise for perfecting their Japanese.

However, I don’t know much about the technical aspect of making this possible, and I could imagine it being hard on the behind-the-scenes folks on the BP team. Maybe it will take more effort than just adding literal and natural translations.

5 Likes
#12

Fascinating ideas!

I’ve had similar ideas in mind, but my ideas have always been a bit idealistic, like, “Wouldn’t it be cool if X were possible?”

This sounds like it might actually be a realistic thing that could actually be done. Maybe it could be tried out on like a small-scale prototype, or ‘alpha’-type project, or something like that, to see if it’s really doable? Just a thought. :thinking:

2 Likes
#13

That sounds super cool! I was imagining making your own but that sounds like a cooler idea! (Definitly with the verified mark tho haha)

2 Likes