Grammar Sentences forcing failing SRS by asking for unlearned english translations

I wish I screenshoted the sentence when it appeared in my reviews. I think when I tried っこない the hint was a bit vague, like “try something else” but I’m not 100% sure.

On the other hand, I’d like to add something positive as well. Overall the hints/shakes are very helpful and in most sentences I’m steered into the right direction (more/less formal, more modern, more archaic, etc.) so I really appreciate your efforts and I enjoy using Bunpro a lot! :blush:

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I’m glad you’re finding the hints useful! :grin:

The ‘shake’ hints predate the Tense hints, so many of them will be less clear than the tense hints themselves. It’s something we may be looking at adjusting in the future as well.

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New one I’ve run into of the original topic issue. There’s just no chance to link this together with the only context being ‘Literary’ and ‘took the opportunity’

The issues mentioned here are the reasons I moved to the only show Japanese and then reveal and self-grade style reviews. There are too many different ways to say the same thing that at higher levels, the fill-in style really doesn’t make sense anymore. Also, I would say that reading the sentence/vocab only in Japanese and then checking your answer also promotes the “Japanese first” thought process, which like Keaka said, is extremely important for actually understanding the language instead of having the extra translation step involved. Especially important when you don’t have time to think and have to understand in realtime (conversations, etc)

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As previously mentioned, all grammar sentences are being looked at, and any that need changing to match the English in the header will be adjusted. This will take time, but it is being done. They are also being approached in a specific order, to avoid missing any. So moving forward, you don’t need to post any others you find, as it won’t change the order in which they’re adjsuted. :call_me_hand:

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I’ve decided to unsub and discontinue Bunpro.

I had a couple of weeks break and spent time on other resources, and came back recently to have another go at Bunpro, and I’m getting more than 50% of the answers wrong in my reviews due to ambiguity, things being used in a different context from how they were taught, or where there are multiple potentially correct answers.

Due to these, and other issues I highlighted in some of my other posts, it’s unbelievebly frustrating, demotiving and inefficient for me, and simply not an enjoyable way to learn.

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Hey sorry to be bringing this up again but how’s the progress on this coming along?

I’ve now completed all of N1 even and I’m still running into the same issues in reviews that makes me constantly fail certain ones because the English leads me astray.

Another example that I’ve noticed I’ve failed at least 10x on this specific sentence (Not the grammar point as a whole) as the english used is completely different to the rest of the example sentences.


(Instead of using Hard to, Difficult to, this grammar sentence instead just says “wouldn’t”)

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I would like to highly recommend you to first look at the hints during your reviews, and only check the English translation if the meaning of the overall sentence feels unclear to you. As it’s been mentioned several times in this thread already, associating a grammar point with very specific English translations will lead you to using unnatural Japanese down the line; this includes the screenshots that you posted of you getting a question wrong for inserting a similar grammar point, which in reality was either flat out wrong or very unnatural in terms of the Japanese used because you relied solely on the English translation to answer the question. At the higher levels you must learn to figure out what fits or doesn’t fit, what sounds natural or doesn’t sound natural, by just looking at the given Japanese sentence. After all, you’re not gonna have an English translation provided to you on the JLPT, or when you’re outputting with your Japanese IRL. It may be challenging to change your approach right away, especially if you haven’t been immersing in natural Japanese content all that much, but you’ll definitely make significant gains in your understanding of Japanese once you stop associating it with English.

I do agree that some of the sentences need to have their translation improved (like the one for 代えがたい) , but in general: parsing Japanese as Japanese and not its English translation will take you to much greater heights as a language learner than you would reach without it.

Sorry if my response sounded too blunt. I’m only speaking based on my experience of having used bunpro for the last two years and passing the N1 last December from having applied this approach to my learning. Hope this helps. Feel free to respond if you have any questions!

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Your recommended use is not the default setup of bunpro.
Immediately needing an additional full sentence definition of a grammar point because the provided sentence translation is unclear is an obvious indication that the translation itself should be adjusted.

Anyone that starts using bunpro is going to have the same experience as what I’ve listed here. A user above who even provided 3 different examples along with a writeup quit bunpro with the issue I raised being part of the problem.

There is no benefit in going to https://www.thesaurus.com/ and playing darts with what english translation will be used in reviews when only specific translations have been taught during lessons.

Reviews are reviews. They are not lessons.

I’m happy you agree these sentences need their English translations updating.

You can change the setup to display the hints first and the translation last; that way you prioritize a Japanese-first methodology and only check the translations as a fallback when you’re having difficulty grasping the meaning of the sentence itself, rather than relying on it to guess what grammar point the question is looking for. This was also the original use-case that was intended for them. The hints aren’t there to act as definitions; rather, they help you distinguish the desired grammar point from other valid synonyms you may know of, which is what you seem to be relying on the translations for at the moment, and that’s exactly where I think the crux of the issue lies here.

I don’t mean to disagree with you regarding the misleading translations because there’s certainly some truth to it, but blaming those for failing your reviews is just barking up the wrong tree and indicates that you didn’t comprehend the full nuance of the grammar point when you first learned it. Japanese and English are inherently different languages. Consequently, rote memorization of English translations for Japanese expressions often falls short of conveying the full spectrum of their practical use. For a more comprehensive understanding, it is critical to delve beyond mere translations and grasp the intrinsic nuances of the expressions within their native context.

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Absolutely on board with your second paragraph. For how you get to that level though with what you wrote its common ground to say SRS reviews alone are simply not going to get you there, and having random (unnecessarily) ambiguous review sentences doesn’t benefit any learner.

Extra thing to note is that although you can change the display order like you said, this default order is what bunpro provides to all users and the large majority are going to run into the exact same issues as this thread with it.

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I have to say, I don’t understand the words in the initial hints. So, if you are expecting people to be able to do it just from the hints and not needing the English sentences a little at first thats a difficult thing to ask. When you write (Archaic, Commanding) (Gentle, SUggestive) I have no idea what that means. It looks like gibberish to me.

So, having the English translations not really match and having the hints not really make sense to me makes this problem even more compounded. I have a degree in language acquistion and the idea of having people think in Japanese is a great one and the overall goal. But, its generally not … the initial aim when someone is a beginner. After someone has just been exposed to a grammar point they wont be able to do that. All youll achieve with generic translations and hints is frustration and demotivation.

When you are first learning something, most of the time, it needs to be directly related. Vagueness actually can cause mislearning of terms and if that fossilizes its hard to fix later. The AIM is to get to thinking in Japanese but for most learners that requires a lot of repetitive use of the grammar, word, etc in the beginning.

Your brain doesn’t simply move newly acquired items into your language center. (At least it doesn’t for most people). It would be difficult to do but it would be better to SCAFFOLD what you are trying to do. A system where the translations were more DIRECT until you hit a certain level would probably be better for getting to think in Japanese. First, you learn the grammar pattern, than you go through 10-15 repetitive but direct translation, than as they get used to it and that grammar starts to become part of their ACTIVE language you take away parts of the scaffolding and that is when people START to think in the target language. When people are getting closer to the “master” level of the SRS style it would than become very beneficial to be more vague and have them rely on the Japanese sentence and just a little later the ability to even have a translation being removed would be viable and probably beneficial.

But, for most learners, just expecting that ability right in the VERY BEGINNING is not pedalogically sound. Almost no one can read a grammar point and than just jump into doing what you are suggesting. If you are getting that feedback, that you are getting, with understanding that most people who feel frustrated will just stop using the program, its indicating exactly that.

Its a wonderful thing that you are aiming for people to be thinking in Japanese and not even looking at the English translation and I think that is something that people should be trying to do and should be worked up to. But, its simply not how language acquisition works. You could get people there by doing what is suggested above and thats generally how you would scaffold it for a student in a classroom in real life. You wouldn’t just go “Hey, we studied this grammar once and now im going to remove reliable translations because you should be thinking in the target language” because you haven’t scaffolded to that point. You would have the students use it for a little while in a constructed scaffolded way and than slowly pull out that scaffolding and in just a small while most of them would be able to complete those sentences without even seeing the English like you want them to.

It would probably be way too much work but that would have been my suggestion for you to do at the start. First 5-10 correct reviews have a closely translated sentence using the taught English equivalent. After 10 correct answers the sentences might be the same but be translated to show the spirit of the grammar. After 12-14 the translation would be gone completely.

That would accomplish what you want and be more accessible to the majority of students and likely produce better results. At the end of the day, if you’re system is pissing people off for the reasons stated by the posters above… most of them will either struggle through it without telling you or quit. The majority aren’t going to actually give you feedback. Its just how the majority of people are.

Its a common thing that if you haven’t studied how to teach a language even if you are proficient in both languages you hold bias that certain things that are easy for you are easy. Theres a reason that most countries require you to get a separate and specific masters degree if you want to be a language teacher to second language learners. (Japan ironically being an exception to this).

That being said, this feels like it could be a very good tool and I think it IS a very good tool despite having a few warts. I think you’ve made a good thing here. But, its also one I wouldn’t recommend to people if I didn’t think they had a lot of resolve to learn Japanese. For a person at the beginning of their journey or someone I know gets discouraged easily I would steer them towards a traditional classroom even though I think that the format may be more useful or a fantastic companion tool to a traditional classroom.

If your tool can make people even of high level frustrated and you have literal beginners saying theyre on the verge of quitting. Thats a real problem. (There are both of those things in this thread)

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