Grammar Sentences forcing failing SRS by asking for unlearned english translations

[rustx]

This has bugged me for a while now but now that I’m progressing through N1 it has got very bad.

The grammar point I’m going to pick on as an example of this is the following from N2, but there are MANY examples throughout bunpro like this that feel like they’re purposely making you fail your SRS.

にもかかわらず (JLPT N2) | Bunpro

In this grammar point the following English main translations are given “Despite, In spite of, Regardless, Nevertheless”

And for the learning material they have provided on without spoiling all the example sentences, they used “Despite” 4/5 times.

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The problem here is that when its time for reviews, for this example sentence we’re given this translation:

“Even though a space opened, they made a nice play, like usual.”

間隔かんかくがあいた__、相変あいかわらずいいプレーをしますね。

With the answer being:

間隔かんかくがあいたにもかかわらず、相変あいかわらずいいプレーをしますね。

Doing a quick search on bunpro reveals there are (FIFTEEN) grammar points with “Even though” being a marked translation, and in this case にもかかわらず is not one of them.

Before any misunderstanding you may read this as immediately go ‘Ah but Even though and Despite do make sense to be interchanged!’ and I would agree, but that isn’t what has been taught and its absolutely maddening that on top of an already existing 15 other grammar points that might be applicable to the sentence with the same translation, you now need to also account for hidden synonyms which were not defined on a grammar point that already has 4 main English translations.

Sorry if this turned into a rant, but I would really appreciate if all grammar sentences in bunpro strictly used exactly what they taught as one of the main translations, it becomes uncanny and almost purposely failing if you want users to English to Japanese translate synonym meanings when they were never taught that way. There are dozens of examples I could post here, in which is especially bad in N1, but this one highlights it enough.

[Rukifellth]

I notice this too, sometimes the grammar points seem to conjure a new meaning from nowhere it feels.
I get it in the context of the sentence, but it feels like they make exceptionary uses of the grammar points more often than they really should.
Would be nice if there was a category for “exceptional use cases” or at least a tag on te grammar list indicating so. like “yeah normally this grammar means this thing, but rarely it can mean this thing.”

[rustx]

Definitely agree, there is absolutely even more egregious examples throughout their review sentences. They do make sense once you have the Japanese and it can be clearly seen how they translated it with that meaning (Assuming your English is proficient), but without the full Japanese sentence, asking straight from an English translation you haven’t taught is just really bad SRS and not designed from a perspective of an actual learner, its written from the perspective of someone who’s already fluent in both.

[Keaka]

Thanks for sharing your ideas, thoughts and opinions here. We always welcome constructive criticism as it helps us continue to improve.

Firstly, let me assure we never create any study questions with the goal of having the user get them wrong. There are a couple of things that lead to what you’re experiencing and we’re currently working on improving them. An example of one would be that we feel a lot of users have difficulty with more advanced grammar points that share use cases with less advanced grammar purely due to the difference in exposure. This is something we’re actively working on improving at the moment.

A lot of these issues can be attributed to the higher level of grammar points themselves. Unfortunately the higher one goes in terms of JLPT grammar, the more likely they are to just be learning new ways to say the same things with slightly different nuances. This is not exclusive to Japanese and is common in English as well. Typically the more advanced the Japanese grammar and sentences get, the less of a 1-to-1 translation is possible in English. This is because the way the languages work are different fundamentally. While in the earlier stages of learning, this can be somewhat worked around, it becomes less possible the higher one goes, without making some very unnatural English translations. As such there are times when the sentence translations are trying to straddle a fine line between literal translations and translations that convey the spirit of the original Japanese. The example that was brought up in this thread is a good example. There are over 50 different ways to say ‘even though’ in English as well, and we feel that designating one specific translation or meaning to only one specific grammar point would hurt learners overall, as it would create an artifical 1-to-1 translation.

The ultimate goal is to encourage learners to think in Japanese. The English translations are just a support tool for the learning experience. For example with the grammar point のに, we want learners to think のに, not ‘despite’ or ‘in spite of’. The various definitions in the grammar points don’t cover all possible translations, but rather are there to provide insight into the use-case and spirit of the grammar point.

All of this aside, we’re constantly working on improving and making things clearer, and we find threads like this helpful in giving us insight into the minds of other learners. Hopefully we can continue to improve in a way that benefits all learners.

[rustx]

Thank you for the quick response. Please by no means interpret the ‘feel like they’re purposely making you fail your SRS.’ literally, I’m only grateful for my experience with bunpro but this issue has become so prevalent to me now in N1 that I had to make a thread for it.

The main issue here is for what I am failing the review(s) for in cases like these.

• Is it that I don’t understand the grammar point?
• Is it that I’m misremembering the grammar point?
• Is it that I’ve forgotten the grammar point exists at all?
• Or is it that I’ve now been introduced to an unmentioned (natural) mapping translation for a grammar point that I was exposed to in the past?

In this case I would say its the last one, and being that, what is happening is I’m getting taught an additional translation IN the review. Which should absolutely not be the case as this is a session of recalling.

If the question was “give an english translation of the sentence” with the whole japanese sentence available, then it would make sense to say that 1-to-1 translations aren’t applicable, but here we are explicitly given an english phrase in which only (1) japanese grammar point will be accepted, let alone when I actually tried to use the points that had the same translation listed, entering a long loop of “Lets try a different grammar point.”

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Please also don’t interpret this as being pedantic about one point, as I have encountered far worse examples that I’ve simply brute forced SRS remembered (By failing them in bunpro over and over). And only now decided to make a thread for it.

[JLR777]

I think we all feel you on this one! It’s true the lower levels have different ways of understanding to make the difference in nuances clearer, but after reaching N2, I have completely lost the ability to understand the differences between a lot of grammar points I’m learning.

Honestly, I’m at a point where I just use the “undo” feature to try alternatives. If I can’t remember the specific one that they are asking for in the review, then I’ll leave it marked as incorrect and review until that gets engrained in my memory.

Not the prettiest way to do it, but I don’t have time for all these reviews. LOL

[rustx]

I started failing this ghost day after day only realizing today that its yet again the same problem as what I posted in this topic.

Example as in the following:

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Letter: ‘Since the seasons are changing, please take good care of yourself.’

手紙：「季節の変わり目…、くれぐれもご自愛くださいませ。」

Answer:

手紙：「季節の変わり目故、くれぐれもご自愛くださいませ。」

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Navigating over to the grammar point in:

ゆえに (JLPT N1) | Bunpro

We find the main english translations: Because, The reason is, Due to, Therefore, So

And again without spoiling all of the example sentences, a simple CTRL F of “Since” will find 0 results.

Searching for “Since” in all of Bunpro’s grammar points:

Bunpro Grammar Points | Bunpro

Results in (TWENTY) ! grammar points that possibly use it, in which ゆえに/ゆえ is not listed. (yay!)

Why must the reviews force you to hunt for unmentioned synonyms when said word “Since” is already in (TWENTY) other grammar points.

The only reason this issue with reviews isn’t mentioned by more people is because by the time they get to N1 like I am currently in, they won’t be bothered to make a thread like this about it because in a few months they’ll be finished with all learning anyway.

As an extra imagine if English wasn’t my first language, its just bad SRS to force the learner to (learn) new translations during the reviews, especially when there are already over a dozen overlaps of the new translation.

[rustx]

Also perhaps I have been vague with what the easy solution for this is.

It would be just scrolling through all the example sentences of N3 onwards, and when there is one of these (untaught, unique synonym review sentences) to just replace the English word with one of the ones that is actually taught for that grammar point.

[NathanBell_Au]

I’m only on N4, but this kind of thing is making Bunpro a really frustrating and inefficient grind for me, and I’m almost at the point of quitting.

So often the meanings/context being tested are not taught in the lesson page, or there could be multiple suitable answers but there isn’t enough clear context provided in the example sentence or the nuance hint to help students decide which is the correct one, or in the lesson pages themselves.

Like, in hindsight, sometimes we can look back at the lesson and say “ah yeah, I can sort of see why this might have been the correct answer”, but very often it’s still not clear even in hindsight after going through the lesson again.

For example:

and:

Edit: and another

I also have ADHD which severely restricts my working memory. I can review an incorrect answer, then 2 cards later, I’ve forgotten it and ultimately get that card wrong again and again each time it comes up, which only reinforces the incorrect answer.
Usually I’ll only get it right when it’s the last card in the stack so I’m seeing immediately after getting it wrong.

So what I’d really like to see is the ability to add our own (toggle-able) hints to the FRONT of the SRS card, to help us to remember any additional context or mnemonics etc which aren’t taught in the lessons, which can trigger us to pull the correct answer.

Using our own hints to recall and reinforce the correct answer is so much more effective than trying and (unintentionally reinforcing) the same wrong answer 5x in a row because you can’t can’t recall the correct one with the poor/misleading default context provided.

I feel like my progress would be more than doubled if I had the ability to write and toggle my own hints on the review page.

[rustx]

Excellent mentions in your post.

I’ve again run into this problem now in reverse. Because my previous reviews failed me for not associating 故に with the non taught English translation of “Since”. I now have tried to use it in this sentence, and was marked as incorrect with no hints. Because as expected “Since” isn’t marked as an acceptable translation in bunpro APART from that (ONE) exception sentence which has now clearly damaged my learning and SRS memory for the grammar point.

Those exceptions sentences really need to be changed to the bounds of what is actually taught in bunpro lessons rather then just occasionally just picking any word the translator feels like just because it carries the same emotion.

@mods Please consider my solution above of

It would be just scrolling through all the example sentences, and when there is one of these (untaught, unique synonym review sentences) to just replace the English word with one of the ones that is actually taught for that grammar point.

I have no issue if a grammar point has 6 possible bunpro taught translations and I can only think of the first 5 and get it wrong. However I and many other users will repeatedly fail these (untaught, unique synonym review sentences) without even noticing why they’re failing them until it gets to the point of making a thread after already being halfway through N1, or in NathanBell’s case with it already happening in N4.

[rustx]

@Keaka If you could see the above please.

[Keaka]

Hi, thanks for the ping. The content team has been discussing ways we can change things up to move away from this problem, and while a permanent solution is not ready yet, a trial one is already in the works and underway. Considering the amount of sentences and grammar points on the site, it may take some time, but rest assured we are working towards a solution.

In fact, the exact example you mentioned above is one of the sentences that have already been adjusted! It seems you’re seeing an older version of the sentence. I recommend redownloading the site data through the in-app settings or clearing your cache in the browser every week or so to ensure you can see the most recent versions of the sentences.

[rustx]

Wow that is amazing news!

I’m sure it will take some effort with how many sentences bunpro has but thank you and the team so much for jumping on this.

I’ll clear out my cache now

[kizzlesully]

Some of these examples seem like an issue with accurate english translations. I like accuate translations when i’m consuming japanese content, but sometimes I wonder if (when learning grammar) I would perfer a line before the accurate translation that has terrible english grammar, but preserves the nuance and the sentnece/thought progression of a sentence, and if that would help me internalize parsing and thinking in japanese better.

[rustx]

Same for me, when its in a SRS environment we want to build a strong association with (one) or only a few translations in which we then naturally can acquire any nuisance that the word / grammar has in other contexts.

[rustx]

Posting 2 more, the first one questionable but the second one should absolutely have a hint on it.

[Keaka]

We’re currently working on reviewing all of the grammar on the site and making the previously mentioned adjustements. This will take some time and so many adjustments are still yet to be made.

Regarding the examples above, it seems something went wrong with the first example, and it’s missing tense hints which should be pointing towards a more old-fashioned, negative response. I’m going in and correcting this error shortly.

With the second example, the tense hint ‘Conditional’ is provided to point towards a response that carries a conditional nuance, in this case となると. Had the answer been に至（いた）っては, the tense hints would have been ‘Emphatic, Literary’ with Literary doing the heavy lifting here.

It’s important to note that we cannot keep English translations strictly to one Japanese phrase. Doing so would make it nearly impossible to cover everything without running into previously used grammar or vocabulary. For example, if we strictly stuck to の時 = When, the English in your second example would be impossible without making it very longwinded and convoluted. This is what the tense hints are for. They are provided to give more context to the sentence and the possible answers and to assist learners in pinpointing the specific grammar being looked at.

The English translations are also used in a similar way. They provide context and information to help learners move towards the answer being looked for. The translations themselves are not the direct link to the answers, as the study questions and answers are always written with the Japanese grammar in mind first, and the English is then created to fit the Japanese original.

The tense hints, nuance hints, and English translations are signposts on the map towards the final response which is the Japanese sentence and its missing portion.

As always, I’m more than happy to respond to any other questions or inquiries about this topic so feel free to ping me if need be.

[rustx]

Thank you for the detailed response!

Would it cause issue for certain hints like the explanation here to be part of the ‘shake’ hints rather then a full wrong answer? (EG, Warning “Try a conditional” or something similar)

As for grammar points sharing English translations that’s completely fine, the main issue in this thread is when a shared translation is used that hasn’t been taught in the learning part of a grammar point. Thereby making it a ‘new’ English translation learned and almost guaranteeing you to fail the grammar point.

[xyc1993]

Oh yeah, that’s really a problem. I get that sometimes being too literal with the translation may sound awkward in english but if the translation becomes localization that obscures the grammar point then it’s counterproductive when learning grammar. For instance I had the following sentence in my reviews:

あの言葉は僕にとっては、何物にも代えがたい贈り物だ。
I wouldn’t exchange anything in the world for what was said (to me).

The grammar point in question was がたい from N3 which was introduced as hard/difficult to do. In the context of the lesson it modifies the verb to indicate that action is either difficult or impossible to do. While “wouldn’t exchange” is correct in conveying the overall meaning, it’s not clear that がたい was intended grammar. I understand that having very stiff translations or constantly using set phrases is also counterproductive when learning language but in this case I’d say it wasn’t very clear as to what was expected.

Especially if I’m not mistaken, based on the translation the japanese sentence could look like this:
あの言葉は僕にとっては、何物にも代えない贈り物だ。
Or this
あの言葉は僕にとっては、何物にも代えっこない贈り物だ。
Or this
あの言葉は僕にとっては、何物にも代えざる贈り物だ。

I know that we also have hints regarding the grammar but the translation genuinely made it hard for me to connect the dots.

[Keaka]

The tense hints are there for this reason. The existence of the ‘Conditional’ tense hint should render a ‘shake’ hint (Alternate answer) that states ‘try a conditional’ moot. All of the ‘shake’ hints are manually entered for each sentence and response. This means that we have to try and guess what responses users may try for each individual sentence, and then add in a hint manually for each one. As a result, it’s likely that there will always be some user’s response being missed and in the end it becomes very inefficient to do so. We typically cover the most common mistakes in the Alternate answers list, but we feel that with the inclusion of the tense hints, more answers can be marked wrong rather than provide hints. For example, with your earlier example, the tense hint was ‘Conditional’ and you tried a response that does not have a conditional nuance, we feel that this merits a ‘wrong’ response rather than a hint, as the attempted response was outside the parameters of the hint given. So even without the typo in your attempted answer, it would be marked wrong.

As to your second point, some of the changes we’re making to the sentences is to make the English translation consistent with the definitions in the header of the grammar point it’s from. I would like to reiterate however, that the English sentence translations are a hint or guide, they are not directly what you should be responding to. The goal is for you to think in Japanese and try to figure out which phrase or word fits best -in Japanese- not in English. Thinking in English and then translating to Japanese is a common reason learners end up struggling with speaking and listening, and it’s best to try and avoid that if possible.

@xyc1993 The existence of sentences like this one is also on our radar and will most likely be adjusted as well. These also should be quite clear with the tense hints, as がたい uses ‘Emphatic, Objective’, っこない uses ‘High Confidence’ and ざる uses ‘Archaic’. We always do the translating from Japanese → English so it’s helpful to think about the answers in the same way.