How possible is it to do reviews with no hints?

Bunpro
#1

I want Bunpro to work for me, but when I do cloze reviews (after learning about 15 items or so), I start just drawing huge blanks with every question. I’m often like, “I have no possible idea what this could be,” for as many reviews as I have. But it comes on suddenly. The first week, week and a half, it’s good. I’m thinking, struggling, but getting most of the answers correct. Then, one day, it’s like I reach a limit and it’s all gone except for a very few memorable ones.

That leads to frustration. Frustration leads to giving up or resetting the deck again and trying to learn it "Better This Time"🄫.

So, now, I’m just doing one grammar point per day with the goal of answering it without hints. Just study, read, cram one point for an hour - two hours, writing examples, really thinking about it. The goal is to answer questions without hints, but is that reasonable? Is that possible?

Fellow cloze users, what do you consider success and how do you keep yourself from the Total Meltdown?

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#2

Hello there! I was thinking about this too. I’ve been trying to use less and even no hint but, turns out, I just remembered the exact sentence. When I stumbled across a new vocabs or grammar, I find it so difficult to answer.

My suspect is because when I first doing it, my mind still freshed and recognized most of the sentence (maybe because short-term memory?). So, I gave up and use hints now and then.

As for my opinion about your decision, it’s understandable that you reset your deck because you think you’re bad at some. But, honestly, I don’t think it’s a good idea. I think Bunpro is an SRS tool which makes your brain remembers things like vocabularies and grammar. If you reset your deck, it’s like telling Bunpro you haven’t learned anything yet. The vocabularies you’re actually remembered better than others now appears more frequently.

My suggestion is that you can still do Bunpro without hints. And when it gets too hard, you can reveal one hint. If you’re still stuck, use the next hint. If you know the answer because you remember the sentence but you still don’t know why that vocab fits the sentence or why a particular grammar is used, you can find Japanese sentence that contains that word, or ask AI. And after you use Bunpro, I suggest you embrace yourself in Japanese media to improve your listening, and reading. I also suggest to write sentences, trying to use various words and use various conditions. Additionally, record yourself using Japanese to tell about your day is also a good way to really strengthen your memory (It also makes your pronounciation better).

3 Likes
#3

I think there’s a point where you just end up memorizing the sentences, which IMO isn’t bad either (sentence mining is a popular learning method).

I’m also coming back after a reset, forcing myself to review without hints destroyed my motivation.

For people like us, maybe the “best” way is to finish your target JLPT level normally with hints, then reset and re-do the whole thing with only Japanese hints or no hints.

3 Likes
#4

Personally? I just leave all the hints on.

Without them, it feels way too much like a game of “what number am I thinking of?”
Especially when I’m doing 30 grammar points in one review session, it’s extremely difficult to recall which of the umpteen points you learned 4 months ago. You’ll learn so many different grammar points that have really similar meanings but different nuances, so even if you figure out what the sentence is trying to say, you just kind of have to scroll through all of the ones that could potentially fit until you find whichever one it wants.

Unfortunately, this has resulted a bit in me realizing what key words in the hints correspond with what grammar points, so I sometimes find myself just glossing over the actual example sentence and trying to answer only based on the hint.

Overall, though, when you’re trying to force something as nuanced as grammar points into simple flashcards, this is unfortunately bound to happen in my opinion.

The key I think is to read a lot and find them out in the wild to really cement them into your memory.

14 Likes
#5

I’ve seen the creators or staff at Bunpro saying that cloze is the best way to do it. Do they mean cloze with hints on in that case? If not, what do they have in mind I wonder…

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#6

Everything destroys my motivation. I might just be mentally weak haha.

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#7

Thank you for this thoughtful reply! I’ll consider this and leave hints off for now, using them slowly through the reviews.

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#8

Sometimes if there are multiple synonyms that could fit in the gap, but Bunpro still demands that specific one, I look at this word/grammar’s SRS level in upper right corner - if it is low, that’s something learned recently , if it is high - that’s something from long time ago. It requires having already learned some items though, but i consider it a neat way to get a hint when I’m troubled

3 Likes
#9

I do not like the way the questions are asked, but unfortunately the tests use the same type question form so if you do want to pass a test at some point, getting used to the format is useful.

For me, I am first doing it with some hints on and then will redo and review them once I went through the whole list to clear out what their distinctions are. And for now if I really can’t recall I take a blind guess then go into the “show info” section and see what it was that tripped me up.

I guess one of the things I keep in mind is “Getting things wrong is part of the process” and not let failures, even repeatedly getting something wrong 5-6 times in one session get me down. It just shows that I do not understand that part yet and need more time on it.

2 Likes
#11

Do you continue learning new things at that time, or take a break?

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#12

Typically during my study time I take a few breaks whenever my mind say “Enough for now”. Make tea or coffee then head back again. Maybe listen to a song or 2. So… 1 study session with a few breaks.

#13

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I meant when your studying isn’t going well, do you continue to add new cards (new learned material) to your SRS deck or do you pause for a few days?

#14

I keep on studying new terms. Due to how SRS systems work the parts that you struggle with will be asked more frequently again, so you have more opportunities to work on those parts.

But I might not be the best example for this case. Before joining Bunpro I was already near N2/N1 level but needed to get a grasp of the terminology specific for the test.

#15

I’m N3/N2 but basically slid in sideways, having attempted a million ways of studying up until this point. Basically trying new methods of studying became my SRS (+anki decks that get deleted every 6 months). Very inefficient and I don’t recommend it. Grammar SRS is just not working for me how I wanted so far, but based on my history, I’m assuming the problem is with me/my expectations.

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#16

I feel I am in a bit similar situation as you are. Especially after a while, there will be so many ways to express the same thing as in the example sentence, it is almost impossible to guess the right thing without the hints, unless you learn the exact sentence with the exact missing part. And just to clarify, that is not what Bunpro is for.

What I try to do is actually understand the meaning of the grammar point, so I can use it myself, not learning the bunpro example sentences by heart, because that is useless. For this, I mean being able to use the grammar point: try writing out your own sentences or use it in speaking or even identifying it in Japanese texts or spoken language.

What I do know, is identifying grammar points in Japanese texts and actually making the point to remember and understand why that grammar is used in that sentence.

For me, Bunpro is not effective for learning grammar because it provides so little context, even with the example sentences, that I simply cannot learn it from Bunpro alone. I use Bunpro to review grammar, not to learn it from scratch. From my daily learning time, I try to keep bunpro maximum around 20% of it, but even that is too much I think considering my level.

Depending on where you are on your Japanese language journey consider pairing your grammar learning with active practice. As a beginner, I always actively practice conjugating the basic grammar rules, not just looking at them. At around the intermediate level, I usually buy a grammar practice books and review all the grammar points and do all the practice tasks. Beyond intermediate level, I learn the most by using the language.

It may be worth to research a little bit for yourself, what may be the best learning methods for your specific language goals.

Just put the full hints on.

Resetting your progress every time because of frustration leads you to re-do the same things again and again, which is a waste of time and energy.

And to be clear: just because you mess up a review for a specific grammar point, it does not mean you do not know it. If you can use it without problem, you know it. That’s it.

#17

I’m a big fan of taking breaks when needed: if you’re not in a hurry to learn the language then it shouldn’t be wicked painful. I had a busy couple of weeks recently so I’ve not done a new grammar lesson since the start of the month, but I’m keeping up with reviews and reading practice and that feels good to me :slight_smile:

#18

Hi @burns_j, welcome to the community! :partying_face:

Sorry to hear you’re having a frustrating experience with the system. It can definitely take a little time to find a review style that works well for you, so hopefully I can provide a bit of insight. :slightly_smiling_face:

Can I ask what made you decide to do Cloze-style reviews without using the hints? The reason I ask is that the hints are designed to be part of the learning process—they’re there to provide extra context (such as nuance or tense), and if you use the Japanese hints instead of the English ones, they can also serve as additional reading practice.

I also noticed you mentioned that the Bunpro staff recommends doing Cloze reviews. While many people on the team (and in the community) like that approach, I wouldn’t say it’s the one “correct” way to use Bunpro. The best review style really depends on your goals, your current level, and how you personally learn best.

Happy to chat more if you don’t mind sharing what’s been feeling difficult. Maybe we can figure out a workflow that fits you a little better. :smiley:

4 Likes
#20

I think this may be in the setting actually, cloze input is noted as best for retention. However, without hints, it is brutal. For me, sometimes it is brutal even with the full hints on.

For some reason, there seems to be a feeling floating around in this community that using hints is some kind of weakness, or using hints is not the “right” way of using Bunpro. I think that is garbage, hints are there for a reason, to help you learn.

1 Like
#21

From a perspective of someone who hasn’t been doing Bunpro for quite a long time, has passed Bunpro’s N1 mock tests, and now doing N5, N4 in close format, I would just say that in many cases I just cannot guess what the sentences wants from me, so I just turn on all the hints (including translation), understand the nuance it wants from me, and pull that from the depth of my mind. Then I repete a sentences a few times with the voice so I can say it similarly to the seiyu.

If you are just starting, you should try do this in my opinion:
Read the sentences → understand the sentences → if you don’t understand it use translation or yomitan to get what it says → try to find what it wasn’t from you in you mind.

Don’t be afraid of hints, as long as you put 100% of you concentration and effort it will work well.

I did N5 in close format, and then N4 and N3 in reading, I liked both options. You don’t have to get perfect fills at the basic level, especially when even N5 grammar uses so much more advanced vocabulary then N5. What important is that you continue, you read sentences, you understand meaning and get better at deciphering it, you learn pronunciation really well with that, there are so many points of improvement here even if you don’t use close format, so using it with all the hints of the world shouldn’t be a problem in my opinion, what you need there is to think, to recall, not to get it right imo

2 Likes
#22

  1. It isn’t that frustrating actually. In many ways, it’s much more pleasant than painful. Actually, the page for each grammar point is so good, I’d probably pay for that service alone if it weren’t available freely. Overall a positive experience with Bunpro, regardless of what I’m about to say below. And I recommend it to a lot of people.

  2. I have tried every way on Bunpro. I’m trying no-hints because of the blackout I experienced this week where I’d just lost all grammar points up until then. I couldn’t answer a single question and that really was frustrating. Was I going too fast? Was it because I missed a day? I was only doing 1-2 grammar points a day. I figured it must be in the uptake process that I’m messing up and without hints it would force me to take my time in the learning.

  3. The hints themselves often actually just frustrate me because I’m usually floating between like, “yeah, I know that’s what the grammar does. I can tell from the sentence that it needs that. I just don’t remember what it was.” And “lol no idea. Did I really learn that?” It would be fine to have 20-30% of reviews end up with one of those situations, but not 80%. Would love if there was a hint that’s like “the first character is に” or something. That would jog my memory so often without giving it away. It could be a last ditch effort that doesn’t progress the SRS for that grammar, but doesn’t reset it or send it back either. But yeah, anyway, the grammar description is often pointless for me. And though it might be reading practice, reading about “this 表現, when coming after A, is maybe hypothetically B” 20 times just doesn’t get my juices pumping.

  4. There was a comment floating on the internet, supposedly from staff, from about a year ago that said it’s the officially recognized best method. So I was just going by that. I just want to know how it’s supposed to look ideally at this point.

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