How the heck are JLPT N-levels decided?

I would loooove this. I’m in agreement with @Asher; there are a ton of people who learn Japanese purely for the pop culture, and it’s frustrating to learn, learn, learn, then pick up your favorite manga and realize you still have no idea what they’re saying. It would be a fun, unique patch for Bunpro, and you could ‘customize’ as well - only using example sentences from manga/light novels/V-tubers/whatever, for instance. That’s a lot of work for you guys, I know, but I wanted to throw in my support nonetheless.

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Two things that come to mind as far as the content and the levels seeming strange:

The first is that the view of a language from outside is not necessarily the same as from within, because people in a native language casually use slang whereas they go through schooling to reach the point of consuming things like novels, so there’s a chance proficiency is viewed according to that style of content.

The second is that slang may be more transient than other parts of a language, and whoever designs the test may not want to account for the fact that one year someone added the equivalent of “gnarly dude” to one of the questions.

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I see it a bit different. First important clue is that you will not meet such an animal as “grammar point” learning other languages. You learn actual grammar, vocab, and how it comes together in given language. In that third part you will learn common application of given grammar including useful expressions (like: verb事がある, or 方がいい).

Why it is different in Japanese? That is simple: JLPT is not design to help learners, it is design to help guestimate if given foreigner got enough Japanese to handle the job, and they wanted it to be cheap. You don’t learn polite language because Japanese people are crazy and will kill you when you choose wrong politeness lvl or it make sense from grammar point of view. You learn it because employers want their employee to speak politely to costumers. It was therefore not design to be study guide.

So what they did to maki this cheap and simple? They selected most important expression and vocabulary and are automatically testing you if you got it.

Then Japanese learning community was born. And what every student wants to have? A proof he/she knows Japanese. Japanese License let’s called it. So companies making text books started making books helping past JLPT. It is cheaper this way as well: you don’t have to research what material put first. And here we are: learning Japanese in the most strange way possible.

Here is video speaking about it in a little over dramatic tone ; )

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I agree with most of this video, particularly the shortcomings of JLPT which really can’t be overstated. Forget the learners perspective, the outcome measurement don’t even function as intended; the self-assessment ‘proficiency’ and comparison to BJT is all over the map when compared JLPT (along with zero measurement on any output which is essential for anything labeling ‘proficiency’). There is even a new exam in Japan that is being used for employment purposes more recently since they are seeing JLPT more as an academic measurement.

Cure Dolly is not exactly neutral either, they have their flavor for teaching with a product. I would still consider N3 fundamental though, there is nothing in that scope that I would have considered a waste of time in terms of vocab and grammar. There is always the SRS vs. immersion ratio tough; it’s good to check this. I feel if you immerse too much too early, I feel it’s way too frustrating for many and misses alot of fundamentals which is not time effective. And then in the intermediate phases, SRS starts to have lower returns on investment of time where immersion could be much better served. Really depends what you want to do with the language as well (short and long term goals).

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I would not go into argument she is bias because she got a book.She does what it take to not promote her channel. I heard her more often inviting to leaving than to subscribing (eg, “if you think peach accent is import the here is the door”). She just like do weird role playing i guess.But sure: her word is just word, not a gospel.

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Whether it’s based on manga/light-novels, or based on a ‘more logical’ or ‘organic’ approach to learning grammar like Cure Dolly-sensei’s approach (I’m sure she would support the former also; e.g. she has one of her books and several of her videos teaching grammar based on using the stories of Alice in Wonderland as a backdrop/reference-point), I’m sure it would be valuable for us learners, and perhaps even set BunPro even further ahead of its competitors in terms of valuable features and content.

[Edit: Ah, I see I’m not the only one to connect this idea with Cure Dolly. Anyway, I haven’t read the thread yet. Just going to leave my comment as-is for now.]

Reference:
About learning Japanese in an ‘organic’ way, in conjunction with stories (note: includes promotion of her book, but it’s not obnoxious, IMO. The video is still relevant, even ignoring the parts about the book.):


Longer explanation of the ‘organic’ style of learning, with some concrete learning tips:

The prior two are mostly about Kanji. This video is how she uses the same approach for learning grammar ‘more logically’, too:
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Great minds work similar :upside_down_face:

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yes! this!

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I think this is a brilliant idea! It would certainly make this site stand out from the crowd and fill a void in Japanese language education.

Now, that brings up another thought. Kinda similar to the option to choose your path, what about having an option to study certain subsets of all grammar? Example: focus on casual form, focus on contractions, focus on ます form, focus on keigo, focus on formal writing, etc. (Recently, I started picking only non-硬い forms within N2 to focus on.)

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Seeing as I have no intention on taking the JLPT tests, but want to read more stuff in Japanese, I personally am in favor of this. It would certainly give the site another arrow in it’s quiver in regards to advertisement in my opinion.

However, seeing as this is something I personally want, it might be that this colors my opinion to strongly :stuck_out_tongue: I’m sure whatever you guys decided will be the best course of action in the long run, behind you guys either way!

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Here we have gifted Japanese person taking JLPT and not being able to get 100% mark. I believe he claims he got 290/300 on national exams before entering Uni where average is 120. And he give his opinions after. Most what I think about JLPT is base on this video alone.

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I’d like to revisit this for a moment…
Does anyone actually know how the officials decided which grammar goes into which level? Why did officials adopt this philosophy (the JLPT sequence)?

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Historical reasons, I think?

Why most of the world is driving on right side when left has be proven to be better for many reasons? Because there is no motivation and will to change it.

I was looking on a few website and there is nothing about their methodology so I assume it is nothing they are proud of…

Why you are interested? Maybe it will be easier to find having that piece of information. :hugs:

Edit:
They even put straight up lies on their website…
https://www.jlpt.jp/e/about/points.html

0_o

Or have they added practical part?


https://www.jlpt.jp/e/about/levelsummary.html
that may help?


This look like a hint:


Notice like there is nothing about doing it in “good way”, help to give structurer for Japanese learner or anything like that. They have one goal: to be big.

Very nice out of context quote. I don’t know how you could interpret it like that if you look at the whole thing.

“Note that the JLPT does not include sections to measure speaking or writing proficiency directly.”

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I had some Japanese friends trying N1 in a bar while drinking just for fun. Some questions are stupid especially in the reading but native speaker would pass it like a charm (maybe not get 180/180 though).
Actually on the official website they say that not all the questions on test are counted towards the score as well -> some are just research for JLPT committee to see how well people can answer those depending on their level and score on the test and help them come up with future test questions.
Anyway, JLPT is a bit like TOEIC that Japanese people love to take, (TOEFL is somewhat better but even then it is not a real evaluation of ones English speaking ability) - people who pass it supposed to be able to read almost anything in Japanese and understand most of it and also understand spoken Japanese.
As for the grammar I feel like N1 is basically a collection of all random things that didn’t make it into other levels. But also for other levels I think for a long time there is no official grammar list and it’s up to people on the committee to put into the questions whatever they want or feel like every 6 months.
People who tend to read resources intended for native speakers will encounter all grammar anyway, N2 or N3 grammar probably more often than N1 grammar but everything depends on which resources are we talking about. If the goal is to feed adult learners with grammar points in certain order to make sure they can start communicate in Japanese asap then it might makes sense (for an average learner) to keep most of N1 topics for the end of the studying.

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“ability to use the knowledge in actual communication.” No such thing in JLPT.

@MacFinch They never say that they test it though. They say it’s important, that’s all. They specifically say that they test it through Vocab/Grammar + Reading + Listening without quizzing output because it’s machine-scored.


The JLPT is good for what it is. A milestone to check off, because if your Japanese is good, you’ll pass the N3 even if you didn’t specifically study to pass it.
As long as you don’t go in expecting it to be some perfecture measure of your Japanese and an ideal guideline towards studying Japanese, you’re fine.

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"The JLPT places importance not only on "

That does not equal to they’re testing it directly.

At very least dishonest and misleading.