たって lesson info could be misleading

Bunpro has a lesson on たって - for those who don’t know there is also a different たって which is not on Bunpro, as far as I know, which is used with volitional forms of verbs to mean としても or といっても and with non-volitional forms, 形容詞, and 形容動詞 to mean just といっても. The Bunpro lesson concerns a different たって which is the informal spoken form of ても・でも, used for emphatic hypotheticals.

The lesson has the following section:

Fun-fact - Although たって is widely considered a casual form of ても, it originally stems from たとて, which is a combination of the auxiliary verb た, and the particle とて, which itself is thought to be an old-fashioned abbreviation of とっても. In this way, the modern abbreviation of たって still reflects the original extended nuance of たとっても ‘even if (A) is said, (B)’.

I think this section is misleading as it could lead someone to accidentally conflate the two different たってs as the non-lesson one does actually mean といっても whilst, if you ask any native speaker or consult a dictionary, the one in the lesson means ても. To be clear they are not simply two different nuances of the same thing but actually two different things.

Here is a dictionary entry for both:

たって[連語]

[連語]《格助詞「と」と動詞「いう」の連用形に接続助詞「たって」の付いた「といったって」の音変化》名詞、活用語の終止形、動詞と一部の助動詞の命令形、一部の助詞に付く。上に促音の付いた「ったって」の形をとることが多い。ある事柄を認めるにしても、全面的にではないという気持ちを表す。…といっても。…としても。「登山たって、ハイキング程度さ」「来いったってすぐには行けない」「買うったって近くに店はないよ」
[補説]打ち解けた[話し言葉]で用いられる。

たって[接助]

[接助]《過去の助動詞「た」の終止形に接続助詞「とて」の付いた「たとて」の音変化》動詞・形容詞、一部の助動詞の連用形に付く。ガ・ナ・バ・マ行の五段活用動詞に付く場合は「だって」となる。逆接の仮定条件を表す。…ても。…たとしても。「笑われたってかまわない」「いくら捜したっているはずがない」

You can see that part of the etymology in the Bunpro lesson is mentioned although it doesn’t go as far to say that たとて means といっても (which I have no idea about but it is misleading in the context of the lesson, I think).

My proposal is either Bunpro adds a lesson for the other たって (which it should probably have anyway) and/or it cleans up the current lesson to make it less easy to confuse the two different たってs. As it is it is probably quite easy to mix the two up. Thoughts?

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After reading through this, is it possible that the part that is misleading is the origin of とて? This is the part that the ‘original extended nuance’ is talking about.

Basically the point that we were trying to convey is that たって comes from たとて which itself comes from a combination of た and とて, with とて having the following meaning.

と‐て

(語構成に関しては諸説がある。→補注(1))

[1] 〘格助〙

① 文または文相当の語句をうけ、「…と言って」「…と思って」の意を表わす。この場合の「て」はきわめて軽く、文法的機能は「と」だけの場合とほとんど変わらない。

※伊勢物語(10C前)一六「年だにも十とて四つはへにけるをいくたび君をたのみきぬらむ」

② 名前を表わす[体言]をうけ、「…といって」の意を表わす。

※宇津保(970‐999頃)忠こそ「あやきとて、めでたく形ある童を使ひ給ふ」

③ (①の用法から進んで) 体言をうけ、

(イ) 理由・原因を表わす。

※歌舞伎・傾城阿波の鳴門(1695)一「為慣れぬ業とて見つけられ巾着切の悪名を取り」

(ロ) 「…だって」「…もやはり」の意を表わす。

※野菊の墓(1906)〈伊藤左千夫〉「これが生涯の別れにならうとは、僕は勿論民子とて、よもやそうは思はなかったらう」

[2] 〘接助〙 ((一)の用法から転じて) 仮定の逆接を示す。たとえ…としても。…ても。

※史記抄(1477)一二「秦楚を合すればとて韓にあたらう用てはない」

※浄瑠璃・心中天の網島(1720)中「いかにわかいとてふたりの子の親、結構なばかりみめではない」

[補注] (1) 語構成に関しては、(イ)格助詞「と」に[接続助詞]「て」の付いたもの、とするのが一般の説であるが、(ロ)断定の[助動詞]「と」に接続助詞「て」の付いたもの、とする説もある。
(2)「と」によって引用された内容は、下の[用言]に対して理由・原因になることが多い。従って(一)の①の用例のあるものと③とでは、その間にたいした違いを認めることはできないし、また格助詞と接続助詞ともその点で連続する。

From this, we wanted to emphasize that while they may have slightly different meanings, たって is not a conversion of ても, it’s a conversion of とて, which shares the same origin across all of its grammatical meanings, (see 2 linking back to 1 in the description).

Sorry I may have completely missed the point you were referencing, please correct me if I am wrong!

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That is pretty much what I was saying - the reason I think it could be confusing is imagine that you have no idea there are two たって (one which is used to mean といっても) then you could come away thinking that the one in the lesson means といっても - it would be a mistake but I think it is an easy one to make. Some mention of the other たって would be helpful. That’s my impression at least. I will say that I personally enjoy all the little etymological detours in the explanations as they are helpful for my memory so this isn’t a complaint by any means.

On a sidenote, I can’t find any source saying that とて comes from an abbreviation と言っても - dictionaries seem to agree that in the case of とて as a 格助詞 the meaning is the same as と言って (not と言っても) but the actual etymology doesn’t point back to either. The few sources I looked at mentioned different theories which are all competing anyway so it obviously isn’t a settled issue but I was wondering if you remember the source that said it was an abbreviation of と言っても. I had a very fruitless discussion about this with a kokugo teacher about an hour ago so it is clearly an extrememly unimportant and pedantic issue but since I am here I thought I would ask 笑

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Ahhh I see where you’re coming from. I’ll make a note to add a bit about the other たって as well, we’ll almost definitely end up adding it as it’s own grammar point.

For the life of me I can’t remember the exact textbook/dictionary/website. I usually have a mix of 新完全マスター, 絵でわかる日本語 (and a couple of other websites), 新明解国語辞書, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典, and either one of 初級 or 中上級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック open all at once when writing :sob:.

It is completely possible that I put the も in there as reference to the current と言っても, regardless of the も not necessarily being a part of とて originally, despite it being implicit as can be seen by its synonyms like ても, たとえ~でも, としても, etc. If I can’t find the exact source, I’ll remove the も from the description, but add that it is an implicit part of it.

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Just wanted to say: Nicely articulated and detailed report, @CursedKitsune . :smiley::+1:

(I haven’t gotten that far yet, but I’m glad folks like you are making such useful reports for the BP team to investigate and tackle.)

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すごい!

Also, thanks for the interesting conversation (both of you). I wasn’t aware of the other たって until now.

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