My opinion is that dual wielding anything is always fly as hell 
.
But that does sound really interesting. I haven’t tried it myself, so I really shouldn’t say anything about it’s effectiveness, but I can certainly imagine it being very useful for the method I was talking about!
@Munchakoopas @semanticman
Since the discussion is shifting towards translated subtitles I think one obvious point speaking against this method should be said: A lot of translated subs aren’t accurate. The amount of liberty JP-EN translators take in their work of course differs, but some of it is really bad (especially if the subtitles are used as a learning resource. Which isn’t the purpose of the subtitles, it’s aimed at people who don’t understand Japanese).
Some translators for JP-EN even prefer to say they are localizing rather than translating, because they are open about making changes to fit Western audiences better. These translators are not suitably for people in this forum, in my opinion.
A quick example to illustrate:
A couple of months ago I was playing one of the 龍が如く games and one of the characters said something like 病院に行って (don’t remember exactly, but that’s the gist), the subtitles to that sentence was “He needs to see a doctor”.
For a general audience that was adequate in the context. But for language learners that’s simply bad because nothing can be learned from reading along while listening.
We shouldn’t put our faith in translators’ subtitles because they don’t have our shared interest in mind while translating / localizing.
I don’t see it as a problem because you’ll have to see a word dozens of times before you remember it and if in some cases this word is translated inaccurately you’ll get it’s meaning other times and if the translation is totally different it’s time to pull out yomitan!
I just see it as an unnecessary problem, an obstacle you’re creating for yourself for no good reason. My goal in this is to acquire fluency in Japanese, not become a human Google translate. That method is also basically taking on the role of an unpaid quality tester of the translator’s work, and for what purpose? To me that is unclear.
It feels safe and comfortable because you’re more “at home” with the translated language, but I don’t think it’s a productive enviroment to stay in.
I don’t like that method either, just thought that the problem you described possibly does not exists
I don’t see how it couldn’t exist since I gave a real-life example to highlight why it is a problem. But agree to disagree on this issue I guess.
You raise a very important point that anyone using translated subtitles needs to keep in mind if they try what I suggested. And to be completely clear, I’m not advocating for that over watching things with Japanese subtitles.
But personally, I don’t see the pitfalls you raise as non-starters, and in some cases I think they’re a feature, not a bug. Sorry for what has turned out to be a whole-ass essay, but I wanted to really articulate my thoughts, and hopefully it doesn’t make me seem like an ***hole 
First of all, let’s start with the fact that learning a language is a multi-faceted optimization problem, with multiple interrelated sub-skills that often reinforce each other, but are not fundamentally necessary to be fluent in speaking a language. After all, being illiterate in your native language doesn’t mean you can’t speak it.
For ear training, the only reason to read anything, in any language, is to prime your brain to better parse the speech stream into lexical units. However you get that done fastest is the only measure of how well a method is helping you with that. If, for some reason, reading in your native language does that faster than reading in the target language, it is an effective method for ear training.
And I’m here to tell you that in at least my case, the times that I did it last year, it was. Yes, despite the fact that subtitles often take liberties with how they render the ideas, the English translation helped me recognize the Japanese words I was hearing, all told, faster than reading captions. Reading in English meant I didn’t have to get bogged down with grammar and idioms that I didn’t know (which I might not even have been able to read properly) before I could even start to prime my brain. I quickly noticed the English phrases that I would very likely know how to say in Japanese, listened out for those things, and didn’t stress the stuff I wasn’t going to understand anyway. I’m not the slightest bit worried that reading “he needs to see a doctor” when the spoken Japanese was more like “go to the hospital” negatively affected my long-term learning.
Personally, I am actually delighted by the differences in how the ideas are rendered in each language when they are notably different, and anything that delights you motivates you, and motivation is the underlying most important variable in the overall optimization problem. When I’m watching anime for entertainment with subtitles (which I still need to in order to get everything), I’m also reflexively parsing the Japanese, and it enhances my appreciation when I notice a cleverly localized translation. That’s what I meant by feature, not a bug.
So what I’m trying to say is, it was very effective for me, and it might be helpful for other people looking to improve their listening comprehension if they’re finding that they’re staring at subtitles on a paused screen for 2 minutes for every 1 minute of runtime.
It is, of course, a trade off! Any time you’re not reading in Japanese, you’re surrendering an opportunity to practice reading comprehension, and being able to read well is a force multiplier for learning the language overall. It’s not a trade-off I usually choose to make these days. For example, when I do my reviews on BunPro, I always use the Japanese language cues and only pull up the English if I can’t figure out for sure what it means. But when I did, it was effective.
That’s a good point. And if it works for you and yields results that’s really all that matters.
For me the moments of difference in meaning between the languages only disturbs my focus and become points of annoyance. But if some users can turn that difference into something positive instead for themselves I think that’s great.
No need for that caveat. Differing opinions are great for discussions. It would be pretty boring if everyone just had the same ideas and thoughts all the time.
I also really like “JP-EN”. (voice-captions)
English is not my mother tongue. Sure, EN-EN was really good to make me learn how to listen to English, because classical classes are heavy on reading EN, and how EN are pronounced is quite difficult compared to French (my mother tongue) or Japanese.
So in my case, EN-FR had the benefit of helping me finding out what was the word I did not understand in EN vocal, by seeing the meaning in FR, and then trying to figure out what was the written word thatcould match the pronunciation. But once again, in EN it’s sometimes a bit difficult to make that spoken-read mapping.
JP-EN or JP-FR now, the problem is a bit different. In JP-EN, I hear a sentence, I can somewhat get the structure of it, but 90% of the time, the missing part will be 1-2 words of vocabulary not known. If I see the EN/FR caption, I can quickly guess what I was missing, and just think about the japanese related word, and see if it matches.
But contrarly to EN-FR, where sentence is very close, JP-EN/FR is very, very different. So there is 2 sides of the coin :
JP-JP : Will definitely help you see those structure written, but won’t necessarily help you understand the nuance or meaning that this construct or word might.
JP : EN : You will more easily learn that this JP construct has a EN construct. Sure, translation are maybe not always accurate, but we’re talking exceptions more than the general rule. Also, with practice, it’s also extremely rewarding to start to understand those differences.
So in my daily activities, I do both.
My big takeaway for anyone a bit lost in those debate between JP-JP or JP-EN : Just try a bit of both. It’s really silly to oppose one against the other. Both have different benefits, and by doing a bit of both you’ll gradually have a better sense on how they can be. Don’t judge things as good or bad, things like inaccuracies are perfectly fine and will also be the small reward that’ll make you feel you made progress, or, sometimes, you were wrongly interpreting something. Even now, while I’ve been working in EN speaking companies, I still realize some words I understood them badly when I look at something with EN-FR captions. EN-EN never really put my understanding to the test. Words like “seldom”, I thought they meant “all by myself” when they meant “rarely”, but no amount of pure EN-EN immersion made me realize that for 10-15 years of daily EN usage.
Language learning is not the pursuit of the “one best way to learn”, the best way to learn is a moving target based on your prior ways of learning. So be open-minded and few hours of experimenting something won’t kill you.
And in the end, what really count, is the effort you put in (time, but also intention, regularity, double checking sources, …)
That’s a really good point you bring up! And honestly something I neglect a lot of time. I had a point similar to this brought up to me a few weeks ago by a friend who is less advanced in Japanese. I was going through Bunpro vocabulary and nitpicking that the sentences were “too literal” and “sounded weird” until my friend pointed out, “well you’re talking as someone who has the luxury of not needing such a literal translation”.
So yes, I’d agree that media translations aren’t what you use getting a textbook translation. But I still think they are wonderful, even for beginners, because even if they aren’t literal, you can still pick up on things here and there. Still cultivate and maintain your interest in Japanese culture and keep yourself engaged in wanting to learn! You still get your brain to get used to hearing those foreign sounds and rattling them around.
So in the end, I recommend subtitles and translation for learning comprehension not necessarily because they are correct in a literal sense. It’s because it helps fill a gap that formal textbooks and learning resources seem to frequently lack - that is finding a way to provide exposure in a casual setting and maintain motivation beyond the desire to simply pursue knowledge. Plus, idk I just love anime. 
I am also in the OP’s situation of being stronger with reading than listening, and not just in Japanese either. I think there is excellent advice in this thread, and a good deal of it could apply to other languages as well.
I didn’t completely read every answer you already got and just wanted to give my 2 cents here too. From what I read, no one mentioned what I will ramble about. But if that’s the case, just ignore my post. 
TL;DR:
Yes, to improve your listening skills, you just have to listen, listen, listen, listen - actively listen. You can do that with and without subtitles. Just try to recognize the sounds, patterns and context in with they’re made and don’t hesitate to look up if you got it right or not.
Full version:
When we learned our native language, we didn’t do it by reading texts, but simply by maaany maaaany hours of listening and listening in context (reading and writing came much later into play). So our brain learned to decipher what it hears and to connect those various and sometimes funny sounds to a meaning we got via context (so no translation into “words” but into “meaning” = the sound “chair” means this little thing were one can sit on and which stands near that big thing with the sound “table”, for example).
But when we learn another language after that, we were presented with a method by schools or other forms of teachers how to do that - via books, texts and translations of words, completely overlooking the fact, that not every word can be translated into ones own language due to subtle meanings and is simple a method to “mass teach” a bunch of people.
So in most cases, we start learning languages (either via school or on our own) by that method we got trained on for about 10 years or more in school - reading. And with that, we get really strong at that one skill of languages - reading (and writing too. But writing in itself (the method of drawing lines to form representations of said sounds) + output are another topics.)
So to get better at listening, we actually simply have to do said thing → listening. Of course, that’s easier if one understands already everything or at least the most of what’s said.
So one has to get back into the shoes of a toddler and embrace the time of ambiguity - and resist the urge to translate everything in the head.
Sure, everyone is different regarding the learning path. However, everyone learned their native language the exact same way. So now, grown up, it’s more of a mental question of how much one can tolerate to not understand much, or worse, not understand anything. That makes us to those “different” learners, I think.
Also, to be real, not everyone has the time of a toddler to listen 24/7 for 5+ years to get a language level of a 5 years old child. 
So my personal approach is this:
I built a vocab knowledge of at least 500 common words and how they sound + basic grammar in text form (WaniKani + Bunpro). I did that with WaniKani since Japanese has kanji which help me more to understand how the words got together, like a learning bridge of meta knowledge to remember the sounds of words much easier - same with grammar, e.g. now I have a deeper understanding why it’s いってきます when one goes out, than just to rely on the sound and a set phrase-meaning for leaving home.
Then, I searched for some YouTube videos of comprehensible Japanese + normal videos/life streams and listen, listen, listen. I try to recognize words (and simultaneously grammar structures) I already know + try to understand new patterns of words and sentences for repeating situations (e.g. めちゃくちゃ and なるほど).
I don’t try to translate those into English or my own native language. But I try to understand, when those sounds are said = the context. Of course, I can’t completely prevent my brain to want to find similar patterns in my own language, but I think that’s ok, because I don’t translate, I try to relate, if that makes sense. If I think I got the idea, I look it up (jisho.org or ChatGPT or other sources) and see, how much I was off. If I was right, dopamine hits and I celebrate a bit, which is motivating. 
This method is nothing new and already “proven successful” to reach a native level of the target language - if that’s the personal goal! And even my method is just a personal modified version of said “proven” one (called “Automatic Language Growth” (short: ALG), by J. Marvin Brown for Thai, which is based on Steve Kaufmann’s approach.)
I think, I don’t need to mention that, but just in case:
In the end, everyone has the freedom to choose the learning path which makes the most fun for oneself and fits best for the individual life circumstances.
No matter what: It’s still a marathon, not a sprint + everyone has another goal for their language learning journey. 
“When we learned our native language, we didn’t do it by reading texts”
I think we do. Before school was mandatory, a lot of people would not be able to read anything.
I don’t really like the general internet consensus that “school/textbook approach is not how we learn”, while I see so many people around me writing very poorly in their own mother tongue because they had a tunnel vision on only what interested them.
Formal education is extremely important and should be coupled with what we call immersion.
Even the act of talking, before language teaching was standardized, in France and Belgium there were a lot of very different dialect, and it was not rare to find people not understanding each others because of that.
This is a really interesting side of the topic. I’ve meet many young Arabs and Chinese people in Sweden who speak their native languages fluently, but can’t read or write in their respective languages at all. Purely verbal fluency, with no literacy.
I get the impression, you didn’t get, what I meant.
What you complain about (lack of proper writing skills) is not what it’s about. Those people are still able to speak properly, they just didn’t learn how to resemble those sounds with these symbols called letters. Those are two totally different topics.
Edit: To clarify my point a bit more:
[…] “When we learned our native language, we didn’t do it by reading texts”
I think we do. […]
So you learned your native language only in school and weren’t able to talk nor listen what your parents said and wanted from you all those years before school, nor the teacher in school, when you were brought there to learn reading and writing? How did you learn reading and writing then, when you couldn’t understand the instructions the teacher gave you verbally, since you still had to learn to read?
I clearly exaggerate here to hopefully get my point across better. 
Edit2: ALG approach by Mr Brown started in the 1980s, so it’s not an “internet consensus”, just happened to become more acknowledged through the internet in recent years.
Yes! That’s a good example of what I meant!
Same goes for every language which doesn’t have a writing system at all. All those people are able to communicate just fine with each other and so didn’t need to read and write just to be able to speak their language.
And again: Of course, textbooks and schools - and with that reading and writing - do have a place. They are just not “the one” or “the best” approach for learning everything.
I really love how this comment echoes a phrase I started using when I started my self-study journey with Japanese a few years ago, 20 years after studying it in college for a year and falling off after that. When I was first exposed to all of the new ideas in methodology, I suddenly felt like what they do in those Japanese classes was quite dated, and had this realization:
You learn every language the same way you learn the first one.
By which I don’t mean to say that you use the same exact learning methods, but that your brain builds true fluency via the same fundamental processes. As an adult who already speaks at least one language well, you can leverage some tools that a child cannot, but ultimately you must let the wetware build its underlying semantic web through practice — memorizing things can only build a scaffolding that supports that process.
I do want to also seize upon the area of nuance that I think @soundjona was trying to point out, which is that even when learning their native language, literacy is not required, but it is very helpful for building vocabulary, and between 3 - 4 years old most children (who would still be making mistakes like “I drinked my juice”) are already learning the alphabet and once they can read a little they’re using picture books — usually the ones they already have memorized because their parents have read it to them a thousand times. They’re not textbooks, but they are texts. They can then use this literacy to read new things, which gives them more opportunity to interact with the language.
Furthermore, consider that children are generally being taught language explicitly by their parents as well. They’re being told “this is your nose! These are your toes!” And they’re being corrected on their mistakes. It would be an oversimplification to say the children acquire language purely by listening.
To formalize the idea— I like to think of things as being in basically one of two categories:
Practice, in which you actually use the language in some fashion, and which builds your true fluency.
Scaffolding, in which you intellectually learn facts about a language, like what it’s letters look like, what words mean, and how grammar works.
Anyone who been doing some listening practice, and suddenly has heard in perfect clarity some vocabulary or a grammar feature that they just recently learned, has experienced how amazingly powerful building scaffolding is, but they also know first hand that scaffolding alone does not create any fluency.
And lastly I want to cheer for
There’s no way that I would have made the transition from studying SRS material to consuming native material successfully if I hadn’t heard the advice that you need to become comfortable with partial understanding and focus on volume above 100% comprehension — I would have burned out so quickly.
@semanticman
Yeah. It’s astounding how adaptable the human brain is regarding language learning in varied conditions.
I mean, Helen Keller managed to master English to the point of becoming a successful writer. So if we all just put our best efforts into our studies we will with time become fluent in Japanese, no matter which methods we choose.
I can’t add a thing to your post, since I totally agree with you. But I have to write some more letters, just to get this appreciation for your in-depth answer out there.
Same for you: Nothing to add due to agreement, but I need more letters to send you my appreciation!