Not to complain but... this is just not right. (bought lifetime subscription)

Bunpro
#1

I’ve been away from Bunpro for about a year, so I come back and see that “everything is finished!!111”, the discount is removed, etc.

So, I was very happy to see that and thought, “Finally! I can now start using bunpro to learn N1 grammar!”. Unfinished N1 grammar was the reason why I stopped using it previously, btw. So, I proceeded to buy the lifetime subscription. But then as I was browsing N1 points I quickly realized that N1 grammar is practically in the same state as it was a year before. Half of the grammar points barely have 3-5 example sentences which defeats the entire point of the SRS approach of learning grammar.

I’m sorry, but it is false advertisement. I won’t ask for a refund or anything of the sort because I still like bunpro and even before this purchase I’ve paid for two years subscription, but you guys really need to make it a priority to finish N1 grammar ASAP. And by ASAP I mean within a month.

7 Likes
#2

I don’t think that’s really fair. A year ago they just started on N1 L6, meaning half of N1 wasn’t even there. Of course more than 5 sentences would be nice.

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#3

My point is - the product is advertised as finished, which was the reason why I finally took the plunge and bought the lifetime subscription.

As I said, I’m not hating on them or anything. I’ve been part of this community for a long time (since 2019 or earlier IIRC) and I really like bunpro as a whole. It is also the main reason why I was able to ace JLPT N2 and I’m very thankful to them.

I just want them to finally finish the core of this product, that is grammar SRS and only then work on any of the extra stuff that they have been working on lately like the vocab srs, reading, etc.

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#4

You are 100% welcome to submit a report about the payment if you feel that it was false advertising in some way. We definitely do not want people to ever feel that way. The main way we have been approaching content since the core of the N1 grammar points were added (which in most cases at least 6 sentences), is to polish from the ground up.

The primary reason that we are doing this is because we had far bigger issues in lower levels that remain (audio, inconsistency of the step by step approach, etc etc), and this makes up the vast majority of the userbase. That is not to say in the least that N1/N2 users are less important, it is just that if our core remained unpolished, then the 12 sentences that we put into N1 may end up also needing to get changed again in the not too distant future, as they also would not be following the ‘overall’ logical structure from the ground up. Ideally we would love to eventually have somewhere between 12 and 20 examples for all grammar points on the site.

31 Likes
#5

I think you are being a bit harsh here. Bunpro has been pushing out a massive amount of content in the past year at all levels and are continuing to do so. I get that it sucks that they are not prioritizing N1 yet, when that is what you need, but they will get there.

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#6

This made me chuckle.

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#7

Ever heard the phrase, “Buyer beware?” :wink: The onus of investigating a product, or a seller’s claim, is on you, before you spend your money on their product.

This is usually what most claims of false advertising boil down to. The dev team’s and your idea of the “core product” don’t align, which, yes, does suck, but just like before, it’s just a matter of time before you’ll get what you wanted anyway. Besides, you got lifetime, so it’s not like you’re wasting money during the wait. It’s just as worthwhile of an investment now as it would be in a year or two’s time.

A lot of us have bought into BunPro with that very mindset: it’s an investment, and less of an outright purchase. We’re here to see it grow, not because everything we wanted was there out of the gate when we signed up for our subscriptions. There’s a lot of stuff that a lot of us would love for them to focus on making, but we’re not demanding that they focus on it immediately. The needs and workflows of the community here are diverse, and very few people complain when dev attention goes to features that some of us don’t care about, because it’s implicitly understood that everyone here learns differently and one person’s untouched feature is another person’s lifeline to learning.

Furthermore, as other people here have mentioned, the BunPro team works at a blistering pace and is incredibly responsive to its community, especially when compared to other similar platforms. Even with the crazy pace of their work, though, there is a lot for them to get through, and much like a person learning the language, the people teaching it must also solidly construct their foundations before moving onto more complex content. This naturally extends to the order they “polish up” their content in, as well.

Regardless of all that, though: no amount of money, nor the circumstances under which you spent it, grant you the privilege of dictating how this team prioritizes their work. Buying someone’s product doesn’t make your their boss, and telling these folks what they “need” to be doing and when they “need” to have it done by not only reflects poorly on you as a customer and a community member, but is very unlikely to actually have any positive effect or help you achieve what you want at all.

21 Likes
#8

Exactly ^^

The time to choose the example sentences, put the furigana, add them on the database, proofreading, find time for the voice actors, the reading part, redo all of the current explanations to match the new N5/N4 style, … If they drop all current tasks, don’t fix any current bugs, and just focus on N1 the month is already far over … ^^

That’s a lot of work for a minority of users …

3 Likes
#9

While it can be considered valid feedback that there are not enough example sentences on the higher levels, you were a few clicks away of checking it before buying the lifetime…

If you dislike that much as to write it like that, you can always ask for a refund. I’m sure they would honour it without problems, specially if it’s recent.

6 Likes
#10

While I agree with some other people here that this may be somewhat harsh criticism from Kuromaku, I do have to agree in one aspect: I, too, find it a bit unfortunate that so much new stuff keeps getting added. Turning Bunpro from a grammar-centric SRS to a wholesale one-size-fits-all Japanese learning solution is a massive undertaking, to say the least. Not to mention that there are alternatives to most things Bunpro is introducing that make it unnecessary.

For example: Bunpro will never reach Satori Reader’s level for reading immersion. It will never come close to JPDB for vocabulary.

Where it does shine is grammar. Afaik there is no other grammar app like it. What I am saying with this is: I really wish Bunpro would focus on grammar first and foremost, and perfecting that first, before starting on new journeys like vocab cards and dialects. I’m fully aware that there are plenty of people who love the new non-grammar features and all power to them. But they’re just not for me.

32 Likes
#11

I think you have a narrow idea of what “learning grammar” entails; as there is a lot of ancillary learning, such as vocab and dialects, that is required to actually achieve this comprehensively. The overlap in features here isn’t so much “product bloat” as you seem to be implying, as it is a function of the fact that grammar itself is just a very, very wide umbrella topic to try to learn or teach.

Edit: Just as one good example, learning vocab is a very relevant exercise for the purposes of knowing when you’re dealing with い or な adjectives…

Edit 2: By similar logic, WaniKani does also teach vocab, but that’s not just to teach vocab for the sake of being a one-stop-shop; rather, it’s in service to their main objective of teaching kanji, because how to conjugate kanji, read them, what okurigana to use, etc. are all part of that; they could gut all the vocab cards from WK and the service would still be viable, but there’s a lot of added learning value directly related to their objective of teaching kanji in their vocab cards, even if they’re not introducing new kanji. I’d say grammar is even moreso like this.

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#12

As someone that is not interested in the vocabulary right now (functionality, limitations, I have other sources…), I agree with your view that I’d rather they would 100% focus on grammar. But I also understand that I’m not 100% of the user base.

That said, I would sort of understand if the frustration came from someone that bought the lifetime before Vocab was introduced, only to find a possible change of focus.

What most don’t seem to understand, and this happens in every publishing industry (gaming, video production…), is that the content can be worked in parallel, the fact that Vocab is being released, doesn’t mean that Grammar has stopped or has slowed down at all. To reach that conclusion truthfully, you would need to be inside the Bunpro team.

In any case, if you don’t feel comfortable with the current Bunpro, go for monthly/yearly. When I bought lifetime, I was ready to accept Bunpro as it was. All the additions are just perks that I might or might not use or consider useful. I think this is a more healthy way of seeing the lifetime subscription.

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#13

This may be the proper approach indeed. I mentioned earlier the idea of buying into lifetime as an investment, but ultimately, I think I agree with this more, as it’s more in line with “calling it how you see it” with your money.

I didn’t actually expect much from BunPro when I first came into it, and just signed up for Lifetimes thinking “eh, I’ll get what I get, I just need grammar practice badly” and have been absolutely astonished by them during my time with them, but I recognize that that may not be a universal experience :stuck_out_tongue:

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#14

As so often with such arguments, I would agree with you if both the developers and the learners had unlimited time, energy and resources. Since unfortunately none of us do, we have to decide how best to spend our time. As an example, I do not study the readings of kanji. Simply because I find that the time I would have to invest into that is better spent elsewhere, such as immersing or learning more vocabulary. Similarly, dialects: These are an extremely high level topic. I would argue that someone who is struggling with N4 grammar really has better things to do than studying the differences between Kansai and Kantou dialects. If the topic fascinates you or you are already way beyond N1 and already understand everything and bored out of your mind, sure. But that’s not the majority of the userbase.

It’s the same thing here. I never said “study only grammar and nothing else”. Obviously, vocab is necessary. But I maintain that Bunpro diverting time and resources into vocab when there are other, better sources for learners available, is not making the best use of their time. Sure, you can argue that it’s cool that they do vocab and dialects, but I ask: What could they have done with the time, money and energy they invested instead? In other words, what did Bunpro and ultimately, we, the learners, have to give up (or wait longer for) for the vocab and dialect stuff?

And again, it’s personal preference. You might very well enjoy dialects and vocab decks. Like I said above, if that’s you: All power to you. As for me, I won’t be using the vocab feature of Bunpro, because there are other, more powerful SRS systems for vocabulary learning available. As such, I lament the missed / delayed opportunities for a more powerful grammar study system.

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#15

Well, I want to talk here too!
But our buddy kuromaku does have a valid point. One the pricing it doesn’t state anywhere that grammar points are still being worked on. I does give the idea that everything is completely ironed out. I didn’t have this issue because they had a disclaimer during the discount saying the site it still getting worked out.
It probably wouldn’t hurt to leave under the FAQ or something that some grammar points are being worked on. Because it isn’t really miss representing their product but it could be seen like that by someone. That being said of course 150$ for lifetime is still a bargain. Like a really good bargain especially if you started at…well the start.

Also I don’t think everyone telling him to just refund if he doesn’t like it are helping. He clearly is just trying to bring to light something that he thinks is an issue. And I agree lack of transparency of the issue that some reviews are being added upon is an issue.

But like, that’s just my like opinion man

10 Likes
#16

I’m with you, man. It’s hard to look at Bunpro in its current state and call it “finished” — typos, logic problems, broken links, missing sentences, etc.

I get it. The team is adding lots of features and making improvements every day, and kudos to the team for the accomplishments so far, but the site still needs a lot of work — even the finished parts.

8 Likes
#17

Yeah, I just hope that the team has their priorities right and that they understand that the entire reason most (if not all) of us here is because of grammar. Not vocabulary or other features.

For new users they find a massive treasure trove of study materials for lower levels and they are obviously happy with everything, so it might be difficult for them to understand what is there to be unhappy about. But someone like me who’s been here since 2019 and STILL waiting for N1 to be finished it’s very disheartening to see that the focus has shifted now…

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#18

Bunpro will always be a grammar site. I encourage you to take a look at some of the release posts regarding our other (more recent) features. Particularly vocab. All of the context sentences were written using grammar that is taught on Bunpro, and divided into natural sentences based on the users level. This was not done to sidetrack from grammar at all, but to give users a way to actually use the grammar that they are learning, at the same time they are learning new words as well.

Of course, if this is not a feature that someone intends to ever use, then its usefulness goes a bit by the wayside. But if used in conjunction with grammar learning, one sharpens the other.

On a side note, since starting at Bunpro, I have often found it hard to defend the product as a user, when whatever I say will sound like I am defending the product as an employee :sweat_smile:. I truly believe in the long term vision of the product though, purely as a user, and honestly hope we can meet as many people’s individual needs as possible, while still working towards a set end goal.

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#19

No worries, bunpro guys and you since joining the team has done too much good to ever get any hate from us mortals :slight_smile:

The team has done an amazing job over the years and created the best grammar study platform that currently exists. Now just one last push to finish it… :sweat_smile:

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#20

I’m a bit confused by this. I was under the impression that you can see the Grammar points and their example sentences even without subscription. You just need the subscription to ad them to the SRS. So wouldn’t it be logical to look at the product you want to be buy?

1 Like