に particle marking direction or Adverbial?

I want to be clear I am not saying the way I split them is correct, its just my guesses at how those more common uses were split or how I was thinking of them. I think 他に could be either depending on the circumstance now that I think of it harder. I was thinking as ほか meaning another, and as a specific thing that is different or other, but you can definitely use 他 adverbially and not simply as I was thinking of it when making those lists. I was referring specifically to ほかに(も)・ほか(に)は (JLPT N4) | Bunpro – Japanese Grammar Explained which I should have said explicitly since in their description they say " Basically, ほか by itself just means ‘another’, or ‘other’. に highlights ほか ‘another thing’ as being the target of what comes next in any particular sentence." And they claim it is the target marking に for this grammar point. But I do think there are other ways to use it that are presumably adverbial.

Much of the way I have learned has come from Cure Dolly’s videos and she seemingly pushes a very different line of logic than a lot of the responses I read on here, she often very much pushes understanding the core parts of a phrase or even idiom to actually get to the core logic of Japanese like with かもしれない and also ように and many others. I suppose it could just be preference of what one finds easier to help them individually, I often find myself very uncomfortable with learning things as set expressions and makes me feel like I am simply memorizing facts about Japanese and not actually learning Japanese. Much like memorizing your times tables is much different than knowing how to do multiplication. They usually go together sure, but if you were to literally just memorize them, you wouldn’t have learned multiplication per se.

I understand this is a very rigid example, and doesn’t completely overlap with the nuance of learning a language, its just the best way I could think of to lay out my point.

I guess I just find it surprising that other’s do not look at it and ask “Which function of the に particle is occurring here” when trying to learn, to me it is just my natural response to want to breakdown and understand a sentence. Maybe I am not looking at it correctly as it seems others do not have this reaction to my examples but tend to lean more towards it being weird that I am thinking of it this way. Maybe adverbially and target based sentences are more similar than I had been thinking of them and it leads to this confusion on my side.

1 Like

And I’m not saying that you are incorrect, as I said, those are just models and “the map isn’t the territory”.

It’s funny that you bring up Cure Dolly because I actually enjoy her content quite a bit and I find that her approach makes more sense to me than “conventional” grammars, but one thing that always rubs me the wrong way is her claims that hers is the one true way and others are wrong, for instance in how she explains は and が or です and だ etc…

In the end all these models are just crutches we use until we reach fluency. A model is only as good as long as it’s useful, if it gets in the way then it should be dismissed.

If the adverb/direction distinction for に is useful then great. If it creates confusion it should be dropped in favour or something else, or applied sparingly.

I absolutely do that all the time and I think it’s super useful to both understand and memorize these constructs, but at some point you also have to accept that there’s an idiomatic way to use these things that doesn’t precisely conform to the “etymological” meaning of these expressions.

Imagine learning English and encountering the English future “I will do something” for the first time. You could break it down by explaining the meaning of “to will” in isolation, expressing volition, and how it came to mean the future. This is etymologically correct (I believe), and it can be useful in order to memorize this construct in the first place, but I’m sure you’ll agree that it doesn’t really give any insight into how a native speaker think of a sentence like “I will die one day” which has nothing to do with volition.

2 Likes

I agree that understanding where something comes from is just a piece of the puzzle and shouldn’t stop you from reaching the actual colloquial usage of a term, I suppose it has been so helpful for me in other cases that I may overleverage it in other cases where trying to emphasize the colloquial usage of the term could be more helpful than hyper-focusing on the original line of logic it came from. Having a more flexible viewpoint is what I probably have to adopt.

I may just be interpreting this to literal again haha, but are there other ways to view it? I often find this is my problem where I don’t know where else to find another model of a distinct way of thinking about it. Even my core question in this thread seems a little odd to most who are answering, however at the same time no one explicitly disagrees that the two broad usages are directional and adverbial, no? It may just be unfair of me to ask for strict agreement or disagreement as maybe it’s not as straight forward as that in the mind of learners who are past me.

2 Likes

I mean, I feel the same way, that’s perfectly normal I think when you learn a foreign language. But at some point I think you just have to embrace the ambiguity or abstraction and accept that it’ll just become natural, not by finding more and more intricate models but just by using the language enough so that it becomes more intuitive. When you’re fluent in a language you don’t think about adverbs and particles.

It’s like training wheels on a bike, they’re super useful early on but eventually they slow you down and hamper progress. Clearly you understand what ように and 他に and お負けに mean in an abstract way, right? If so, why insist on putting these expressions in well-labeled boxes, moreover well-labeled English boxes?

I think maybe what helps me here is that I use English to learn Japanese, but English isn’t my mother tongue. As such not being able to map things nicely into English grammar is not that significant for me, for the same reason that you don’t care about mapping Japanese grammar to the Russian case system for instance. It’s a just a crutch that I can discard when I feel that it’s getting in the way.

3 Likes

Why not both?

In English when we say:
“She goes to the store.”

The to in this sentence marks directions, as most prepositions do, but in one interpretation “to the store” is an adverbial phrase that modifies the nature of goes.

I think it’s similar in Japanese. I often think about this topic a lot, thanks for sparking the discussion.

1 Like

Assuming they have grammar classes, do anyone know what’s the actual rationale used to explain (both?) に’s to native Japanese kids? Of course they have their own language intuition already, so explanations probably only need to exist to fill the gaps in this assumed pre-existing intuition, but they could still be useful for us to understand it… :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

3 Likes

Uhm… yeah. You might be missing a more fundamental piece of grammar here which I assumed you knew. に makes adverbs from な adjectives. 驚き is not a な-adj., so 驚きに doesn’t mean “in a surprising manner”. 秘密 is both a noun and a な-adj, so 秘密に can mean “secretly”.

Emphasis my own, because I start to feel like this is the core of the problem, and not the actual grammar point.

Not being able to use a piece of grammar 100% properly in a language that you’re still learning is not inadequacy, it’s normal. Even if it’s something as simple (/s) as the に particle. Japanese people have problems with English definite/indefinite articles (the/a/an), because the Japanese language just doesn’t have the concept. It seems like a simple grammar point at first (I mean, it’s in almost every English sentence, how hard could it be?), but it’s not.

I sometimes do it when a sentence is overly long and complex. But I don’t have a “functions of に” in my mind that I try to pattern match into every sentence I find. The fact that 綺麗に走る and 妹にケーキをあげる both use に doesn’t even register, since neither “running to beautiful” (goal/destination に) nor “I’ll a give a cake sister-ly” (adverb making に) make any sense.

Analyzing every single particle, every single piece of grammar this way would be insanely slow. Does this は hide a が or a を? Is this で the location marker, does it mean with/by, or is it the て form of だ? Is this が the subject marker or the formal “but”? You’ll have to do it by intuition eventually, the earlier the better.

Of course, just like @simias, I’m not a native English speaker, I have the previous experience of learning English as a second language, so I already knew from the beginning that reading and listening a lot is way more important and effective than trying to cram maximally detailed grammar rules.

3 Likes

Here is a basic summary (in Japanese, for Japanese school kids) which I suggest reading. It uses a fair amount of specific technical grammar words so on the assumption some people can’t comfortably read it I will provide a summary and some comments below in English.

There are five different distinct uses of に

  1. The inflectional ending of “な-adjectives” (形容動詞). Strictly speaking this is an inflection of the copula だ but in the 国語 system of organising words the copula is considered part of the word. E.g., 綺麗な becomes 綺麗に (な and に both being inflections of だ).

  2. As part of an adverb (副詞). This usage cannot be replaced by な or だ and thus it is clearly identifiable as being part of an adverb. E.g., ついに.

  3. As part of an inflecting bound auxillary word ( 助動詞). This is specifically talking about ようだ and そうだ. This is, as with one, actually an inflection of the copula だ however it is considered part of the word in the 国語 system of grammar. E.g., ようだ

  4. The case marking particle (格助詞). This marks the dative case or the indirect object or whatever. There are a lot of ways to think about this particle so pick whichever you like. E.g., 誰々に

  5. As part of the conjunction particle ( 接続助詞) のに. This is just the nominaliser の plus the case marking particle に so, again, this is just different due to how the 国語 system groups words.

例文:
【A】風が さわやかに 吹く。

【B】ただちに 始める。

【C】おいしそうに 食べる。

【D】庭に 花を 植える。

【E】眠いのに、眠れない。

As you can see you could probably group some of these together depending on what you personally define as a word or how you personally think about grammar. Also if you follow the etymology I believe all these forms are connected anyway (not entirely sure so please check that before quoting me on it). I would suggest just paying attention to usage in context - it normally is not vague at all. On top of all this, native dictionaries suggest further/different ways of classifying に and you can probably go round in circles for the rest of your mortal life trying to work out exactly what it is and what it does. From the perspective of learning the language though, you seem to have the rough idea so go and see it in context and your question will probably dissolve. Good luck.

7 Likes

I won’t get too deep into this, but in short, yes. I also hold this view firmly. Basically all particles can be drawn back to having one kind of ‘underlying meaning’. Some of them do require some mental acrobatics, but it’s really more just about letting go of the way you want to say something in English and letting Japanese be its own thing.

In the case of に, I basically always just think of it as the location within which a verb action is happening. The ‘location’ is a lot broader than English, but really they are the same. It’s just a static place where some action is occuring.

【A】風が さわやかに 吹く。 In freshness the wind is -blowing- (Similar to the more old-fashioned ‘In haste I ran’ type construction in English)

【B】ただちに 始める。 It will -start- -in- a moment.

【C】おいしそうに 食べる。To -eat- -in- a way that seems tasty.

【D】庭に 花を 植える。 To -plant- flowers -in- the garden.

【E】眠いのに、眠れない。-In- my tiredness, I cannot -sleep-.

Whether thinking about Japanese this way makes the language easier or harder for you though is a person to person thing I think :man_shrugging:.

8 Likes

I often use chat engines to help or I ask questions on hiinative and other places, and whenever I had asked the same question there I would get the response that “In the phrase “驚きに目を見開く” the particle に is being used adverbially to indicate the manner or circumstance under which the action is performed” Which is what marked my initial confusion. I am aware that this is not a perfect or even good way to learn, but I tried it in multiple different instances an would get a similar result which is what made me confused as to how it was acting adverbially. But clearly it isn’t, since I am guessing this is just the stem form of 驚く and jisho lists it as a plain noun which makes sense. It isn’t that I don’t understand that な adjectives are going to be used adverbially it was more that I am not sure if there wasn’t exceptions and that in this case somehow おどろき was being use adverbially like I mentioned. But I see how it can’t be for sure now.

Also I should probably tack on that a lot of my ways of thinking about this had come from the Cure Dolly channel and so therefore I was viewing all na-adjective as just being nouns themselves, and so whether that noun happens to be able to be used adjectivally too becomes rather gray, but I should just look each case up in jisho obviously and would have my answer like with おどろき. But it gets a little more confusing as within her model she argues 綺麗 is also a noun that can be used adjectivally, but others claim it is not a noun at all. You may/probably already know all of this about her channel but I just wanted to make it clear as I thought I explained myself poorly before.

I totally get your point about not thinking about it actively like that, and I would hope one day I don’t either, but I definitely do look at both of those sentences and distinguish the に function in my head even if they are read quickly.

Using them as an example, its easy to distinguish because obviously 妹 can’t be used adverbially, and when I ask myself why it obviously then explains why 驚き can’t be either, so I think its more a failure to trust my own knowledge when it comes to finding random answers that contradict it.

I actually do ask myself literally every single question you outlined at the bottom there whenever I read Japanese. Even if I am able to read most of the Japanese I encounter I still have to ask myself those questions, I actually find more advanced grammar points a lot quicker than the particles for the most part as I am constantly asking myself those questions about them, even after having spent a lot of time trying to work on them.

I actually found this to be a pretty helpful post and it made me realize where I think part of my confusion stems from. I’m guessing a lot of the questions I am asking are silly however I genuinely mean them and don’t fully get it.

おいしそうに 食べる。To -eat- -in- a way that seems tasty.
In something like this, am I supposed to know the direction of this? Meaning, who is the experiencer of this, is someone watching someone else eat and thinking that the food must be delicious given the way the person is eating it? Or that the way the person is eating it is indicative that the person eating finds it delicious?

Maybe this is just a really stupid question as it seems others expect me to get this already but I truly just don’t. Hopefully my question makes sense.

2 Likes

Oh boy, Cure Dolly taking another victim…

She has some explanations that makes more sense then the “traditional” way. I found her explanation of the passive especially helpful.

But she has some wild claims, like nouns = な-adjectives. They are close cousins, sure, but they are not the same. You cannot apply さ, み etc. to nouns (〇 綺麗さ, × 妹さ), non-nouns cannot be subjects/objects/etc. by themselves (〇 妹は/が/を…, × 綺麗は/が/を…). What complicates matters is that many words are both :confused: (〇 幸せを感じる, 〇 幸せな家族)

Treat CD like you would a beginner textbook. If it helps your understanding, sure, use it, but there IS a reason why her (and Jay Rubin’s) model didn’t gain mainstream acceptance among linguists.

Then I can only give you one advice: read more, especially level-appropriate materials. I’m in the minority here I guess, but that’s why I loved textbooks (I did Genki and Tobira). It’s full of material that lets you practice the vocab and grammar you just learned, so you won’t be second-guessing yourself on the beginner-level grammar. Bunpro’s reading sections should serve a similar purpose.

We know that the eater is not experiencer. You wouldn’t use そう with yourself, since you already know that you find your food tasty, you don’t need to rely on visual/etc. information (that’s what そう implies). Everything else is in the context, not in the sentence - the eater could be the person you’re talking to, another person over there, your pet kitten… Did that answer your question?

1 Like

I had tried Genki a long time ago and found it extremely confusing, which is why I had enjoyed Cure Dolly’s channel as it allowed me to at least progress. But it seems there is a lot of disagreement with it, with the things you mentioned, plus I believe たい form and how the opposite of what you said about nouns would apply, if たい is making it an adjective like she claims then why can’t you say 食べたさ and stuff, which shows it has to be different than a normal い-adjective right?

It seems like a lot of the time finding the right place to learn can be half the battle. Like I had briefly looked up Jay Rubin as CD mentions him and Tofugu had given his book a 9/10 Making Sense of Japanese - The Tofugu Review And I have used their resources a lot so I figured if they approved then it was considered a high grade resource. But it seems these things are more controversial than they appear.

With the おいしそうに 食べる sentence, I really appreciate you trying to help me, but I seem to be a bit hopeless on the matter as I still don’t get it. Maybe I explained wrong.

I know the person making the judgment is not the eater. But what I am confused about it what the viewer is judging. Are they judging that from the looks of it, that food must be delicious. Or that, from the looks of how that other person is eating THEY must find it delicious.

The way they are eating, THEY seemingly find the food delicious. (About just the person we are watching)
The way they are eating, the FOOD seemingly is delicious. (About the food itself)

I hate to make it into English as I know that doesn’t help get the Japanese but in English you would never say “They are eating deliciously” as that would be super creepy and be referring to the persons motions of chewing their food…I get that in Japanese that isn’t the way its taken, but what I don’t understand is whether this judgement from us with そう about the manner of their eating is indicative of our judgement of the food being delicious, or indicative of the person who is eating simply eating it as if it is delicious to them specifically.

I think of this sort of claim every time I see ads that say something like “きれいは〇〇でつくる”…

3 Likes

This is personal opinion territory, someone more knowledgeable feel free to chime in. But since おいしそう is modifying the verb, I’d interpret the sentence the 1st way. I could definitely imagine a scenario where someone is eating a food I don’t personally like, but their expression shows that it’s their favorite.

However, if I’ve never tasted the food before, the question is more of a philosophical one rather than a practical one.

Book/show/game titles, ads etc. should not be taken as a definite source of grammar :slight_smile: They take many creative liberties to make them shorter, more snappy etc. I’m not taking the manga titled 「 須波優子と百合な人びと」 as evidence that 百合 is a な-adjective.

But as always, if someone can give me a counterexample, I’d be more than happy to hear it. My go-to dictionary at least only lists 綺麗な/綺麗に examples, and my own experience (so far) backs it up too.

Edit: I just found a book titled 「おいしいはおもしろい」 I guess i-adjectives are also nouns now :slight_smile: (jk)

1 Like

Ads are also communication designed to be understandable by a large audience. Otherwise they don’t work.

Anyway the 三省堂国語辞典 does list 綺麗 as a noun (in colloquial language) and gives 綺麗をみがく as an example. So the editors made the same observation, people use this word in this way. And that’s the only thing that counts.

2 Likes

On the one hand, I stand corrected. 綺麗 was probably not the best example.

On the other hand, it kinda proves my point. People started using it with は and を, so dictionary makers start to classify it as noun. That kind of implies that は/を usage is a difference between nouns and な-adjectives, otherwise, why list it as a noun?

1 Like

I think this discussion won’t go much further than this. In my opinion now, I believe identifying which に is being used will not change the meaning of a sentence significantly most of the time, and when they DO change, one of the options will be discarded by context or constraints of other grammar structures (like the topic or subject).

(Supposing as if 驚き was a na-adj)

The topic and the subject is missing. Assuming they default to 私, the only possible interpretation is in surprise because you can’t assume other people will think you are opening your eyes in a surprising manner.

In most of your other adverb examples they are constrained in a similar way as well, it seems.

I’m not too fond of phrases in a vacuum like this…


@hali_g I’m quite fond of Cure Dolly’s model, and it has been very helpful on pretty much everything, so I haven’t searched about her criticisms yet. So I’m thankful to you for shining light in some of her issues, I’ll take her model with more discretion now. :+1:

1 Like

Hey, I apologize for adding back to this after so long, but I do have a few questions.

I encountered a sentence saying いい加減起きなさい, how do you interpret this? Is this something to be learned as a set phrase or is this more in line with “do whats right (whats responsible) and get up!” ?

Also, I wanted to ask you if you had any viewpoint on if Imabi Table of Contents 目次 – IMABI 今日 and Kanshudo Dashboard - Kanshudo are good resources in your mind for learning? If you don’t have experience with them specifically that’s okay, I was just looking to incorporate more learning resources, so if you did have an opinion on them I was curious to hear it.

1 Like

I’d personally interpret your example as a shorthand for 「いい加減にしなさい、起きなさい!」, but that’s kinda long-winded and the repetition of しなさい sounds weird, so it’s shortened down to いい加減起きなさい. See more examples: 【いい加減目覚めたかよ!】とはどういう意味ですか? - 日本語に関する質問 | HiNative

I have no strong feelings about Imabi since I use Bunpro instead :slight_smile: I did bookmark the site a while ago to fill in the gaps after I’m done here. Keep in mind that they seem to be using the model/terminology used in Japanese schools (e.g. terms like binding particle/係助詞, terminal form/終止形 don’t often appear in English language explanations).

I’ve never used Kanshudo, so can’t comment.

1 Like