Pitch Accent - Reasons to Start Learning

Japanese
#41

I used to follow it at the $10 tier, and my plan was simply to get all the videos in a private playlist, and then peace out/stop supporting because I got what I wanted. After I watched the first 20 or so lessons, though, I felt like I got so much value that I remained his Patreon for another 3 or 4 months out of gratitude. I’d say it’s worth it.

I’m not sure if this is how he structures his Patreon anymore, but I’m under the impression that it used to be the case that you wouldn’t have access to his phonetics course unless you were in the $10 tier.

Also, as an aside, he goes over a lot of extra rules and exceptions, but it’s pretty clear what the most important stuff is: knowing the patterns, being able to discern them, and being aware of the ways in which conjugation affects pitch (this last part is just so you don’t get confused when you correctly identify that the て form seems to have a different pitch than the base/plain form of the verb in many cases; the rules for conjugation are pretty uniform, and you’ll notice it in your immersion all the time).

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#42

I am 100% on board with your strategy. This is good stuff.

And yeah, I remember being corrected by a native Chinese classmate on the pitch accent for きれい and I was like “damn, what are you even correcting me on, and how can you notice any difference?” :joy:

#43

I think just answering this one will save me the trouble of explaining why suggesting pitch accent is important is harmful to people that are not fluent yet.

You made very important distinction that I tried to convey using not precise enough wording. It is 100% true that tones are not part of Chinese accent and what is confusing is thinking there is some kind of link between Chinese tones and Japanese pitch in terms of functionality. There is non.

Here you have some basic info how different accent works in Mandarin: https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/pronunciation/Accent

But people do not run around claiming accent is important in Chinese. Tones are scary enough.

So what accent does actually? It is just weak status indicator. It showing you background and education level, but not strongly enough to make you look silly (unless you have for example very strong accent “slams” accent). It is as the word is suggesting: just an accent. A cherry on the cake. If you are very status sensitive and like to be posh then by no means go for it. :hugs:

But first it would be reasonable to master Cambridge accent in english which serve the same function as Tokyo accent in Japanese. If I remember correctly only 3% of British people have it, even less people in US. I know more foreigners with it than natives…

So just to make things clear: Japanese is not tonal language. it is pitch-accent language.

In english you have as well a lot of accent mess that can change a meaning in theory but does not in practices. For example “been” vs “being”. Do you us long “e”? Do you have to different “n”? It depends on your accent. I say it the pretty much same way and never had a problem. How about “two” “to” and “too”? There are different ways to accent it. I say it the same with no problems again. How about “the” and “the”. Are you even aware that there are two way to say it and they have two different function? It is feature of Cambridge accent. Again: it is never problematic.

So please don’t confuse people suggesting the feature that is there to make you “posh” is in any meaning of this word necessary. It is not true, and it scare people away. Just like tones do in Chinese. Japanese phonology is very beginner friendly. No need to suggest pitch-accent is like kanji where it is clearly not.

I think I say everything I have to say to:

cheers :hugs:
If you find this feature interesting then enjoy you journey. :hugs:

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#44

Hey man it’s great that you personally don’t care, but can you please not spread misinformation? Thanks.

Maybe in Chinese. Not in Japanese. Regional differences exist, but knowing pitch accent is important beyond that.

No, they don’t serve the same function.

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#45

Not true. You have prove here in this thread person living in Kansai.

But I will leave as it is.

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#46

I added this before you made your reply cuz I knew you were going to implicate on that. In short, Japanese pitch accent is not something you learn just to convey that you are well-educated and “posh.”

#47

Again: not true.

I gave you video with native claiming that even bigger “errors” are not that important.

I will leave as it is since clearly it is matter close to your heart :hugs:

#51

I can already see this thread devolve. Let’s not go there please.

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#53

You are claiming that “pitch accent” is the same as “accent”. It is not in Japanese.
There are regional accents in Japanese and pitch accent.
It’s interesting that you are so stubborn in your opinion for such a subtle quirk of the language.

For Japanese learners: pitch accent exists and can change meaning but it’s not critical to learn at the beginning. This is from my experience living in Japan and talking with Japanese friends and family.

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#54

My main concern about pitch accent is it’s another thing to remember alongside all the meanings and readings of words. Taking the time to memorize would make the entire process of learning much slower.

Is it sufficient to simply attempt to listen out for it when hearing spoken Japanese?

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#55

Accurate, and an agreeable prescription. I’d say the very basics could be learned in the beginning (the videos I linked to MZa at the beginning of the thread) with no problems. Even Dogen, who has a financial incentive to motivate people to start up their pitch studies sooner, says about 6 months of Japanese study before going all in into pitch accent is probably a good idea.

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#56

Just two get my 2 cents in (cause we need more people in this thread lol) but pitch accent is a topic fairly dear to my heart. For context: I have spent a long time on Japanese, other languages and linguistics, and I have experience teaching ESL.

If I can use English stress as an example (obviously a different thing but similar in the context of my example) you could say stress is like pitch accent in its ability to differentiate meaning. For example: dessert vs. desert. While it is true that in context I will likely be able to understand which one you meant, it takes my brain a second to process. You fill a whole sentence with stress mistakes it becomes more and more difficult to comprehend.

Now as a second language learner I have come across many instances where I knew I was using the correct grammar and vocab, yet I could not get a native speaker to understand what I was saying. As you get more advanced you start to focus on correcting accent, not purely to sound like a native, but to make it easier for the other person to understand you without thinking about it. It can be exhausting talking to someone with a heavy accent. For me, even with different native English accents I often have trouble.

Now yes, depending on your goals this might not be the best use of your time. But, if you plan on becoming a high level learner in a language it is something you should eventually focus on. I was made aware of pitch accent in my Japanese lessons in college, but I never really studied it. I think I really would have benefitted from learning at least the types of pitch accent so that I could be aware of it when I learned new words.

TLDR:
Use of pitch accent can make it easier, harder or impossible to be understood by a native speaker. Based on my experience the importance of pitch accent depends on your learning goals. It is fairly important if you are learning to a high level.

For a new learner I would suggest just learning the pitch accent patterns and keeping them in the back of your mind while studying. If you have an ear for music, you might just find it easy to pick up (⌒∇⌒)

EDIT: spelling mistakes oops

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#57

I’d say follow this plan:

For step 1, you can watch the videos I linked earlier in the thread. Steps 2 and 3 can be condensed into: do whatever it takes to learn how to distinguish the patterns. Maybe you could even use an iTalki tutor to practice different patterns.

After that, it’s just a matter of being aware of the pattern of the word as you learn it, and hone your ability to listen to pitch within sentences during your immersion.

In other words, in my view, there’s no need to separately test yourself on knowing the pitch of a word. But you should be cognizant of it as much as possible.

EDIT: Also, this:

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#58

Since you are good-willed person and you reach to me to clear this out, I will answer you and then I am out:

The fact I can have conversation with you with a lot of grammar errors and strong polish accent is proving me right actually. I have very bad english by choice: I use maybe 20% of grammar. You will never see me saying something like: “I had had” or “I have been”.

I have more love for Japanese though. If English would not be international language I would never learn it in first place. It is just not interesting to me on its own.

Good there is no beef between us any more.

I will run away from this topic though since we are on GRAMMAR website. Clearly people here are bias towards being perfectionist which is not bad thing. :hugs:

#59

So, what you’re saying is, that if I don’t say a word exactly like the Japanese would say it, I’m not just a cute foreigner with an accent?

And this whole time I thought I was cute.

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#60

It is kind of funny you agree with me but you clearly believe you are not.

Except that one remark about me, I agree in 100% :hugs:

And the first sentence obviously… You miss read what I said.

Edit:
I think I will start copy-pasting this to avoid confusion:

That part about polar opposite approach is very rarely true, but just in case I will keep it. :hugs: Part about “similar stage” does not always apply obviously.

#61

I would like to broaden this conversation a little bit to the subject of clear communication strategies, not only pitch accent, since the remark reminds me of my experience and I wonder how much it translates to Japanese. I hope you guys don’t mind.

So I used to be a “door to door” sales person in the UK for a few months. At some point I got very good at it (I humbly apologise for not being humble here…) and even have won best salesperson of the month award (about 60-80 people in the office, 3 not natives). First 2 month were so bad I almost became homeless (provision only system) but my manager pointed out my most obvious mistakes. There were a few language base tips (making shorter sentences since it less likely I will butcher them, speaking slowly, not saying “thingy” or “whatist” - short from “what is it called”) but most of them were basic cultural stuff. For example:

  • Don’t finish sentences for somebody when they are looking for a word since it makes you less likeable.

  • No references to what I would consider common cultural ground since it is often not the case. British people often don’t know who Aristotle was. And often are surprised I may don’t know something culture related.

  • Some tips about body language I would have to show.

  • A lot about British humour (It surprising how funny to some British people is sentence “I am sorry, my english is bad, polish people are not smart enough to polish their english” British people of age over 40 love people making jokes about themselves)

  • And he ask me to read Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie which is basically a book on how to not be an asshole (yes, I know: i clearly don’t follow it since it feels not honest to me…)

So I wonder if something similar may be the case here? Maybe Japanese body language requires more attention than it gets, or a guide on how to have a clear conversation in Japanese is needed?

I know there is Aizuchi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-GQRYA_yMw) for example. Maybe there is some very important cultural barrier?

British and Polish culture are quite similar. But there was still a similar problem to one you described and it was mostly culture based, not linguistic.

#62

このポッストが丁度可愛い😍

*Click here for rough English*

This post is super cute… :stuck_out_tongue:

この説明が大好きです。東京都にすんでいます、でも時々店員達が僕の言ってるのこと分かりません。後で日本人と文法を確認だった、でも文法の問題なかった。このスレの教えてくれたから「高低アクセントの問題」かも。（╹◡╹）

Tap for English

Thanks for this explanation. I live in Tokyo and sometimes salespeople randomly can’t seem to understand something I’m saying. I know my grammar is right (because I check after with a native), but now I’m thinking it might have been pitch accent.

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#63

As former salesperson i can assure you: even if they would understand they will say they don’t, if you say to them they are not welcome xD

#64

誰か高低アクセントの辞書アップを教えていただきますか？僕のiPhoneの辞書で見えません。

Tap for English

Anything know a dictionary app that shows pitch accents?

@NickavGnaro @Asher とか

よろしくお願いします。

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