Pitch Accent - Reasons to Start Learning

Haha, not really important, but I believe it would be 尾高, but you’re right, it doesn’t really make a difference.

I don’t think it’s completely arbitrary, though, because in cases where you don’t attach the particle afterward, it is possible for the pitch to remain high in the case of 尾高型 words. It’s literally only a drop at the particle that is attached, if any. (I may be mistaken on that, but I’ll look for evidence later. I got this insight from an example that I saw from a video from Japanese Ammo with Misa).

But ultimately, it doesn’t really matter, as long as you know that the following particle attaches low

2 Likes

Yeah, here’s evidence: I believe you would say 髪切った as かみき↓った. Notice how 髪 is 尾高型. That means, if we included the particle, it would be 髪を切った (かみ↓を↑き↓った).

Notice how it might be difficult to drop and re-rise so quickly just to drop again. I wonder if difficulty in pitch may be one of the considerations on when to omit the particle in casual conversation. No textbook has ever even tried to give a consistent standard on it, and maybe pitch is the secret sauce

EDIT: In fact, it’s difficult enough to pronounce that ProsodyKun’s machine learning says that it stays flat after み. However, its Bunsetsu algorithm will show the correct pattern. Either way I think is partly the truth. The real deal is that in a sentence, every subsequent pitch drop is less and less dramatic to create prosody in a sentence. And in cases where it’s rapid succession of drops, it may just be flattened out in actual speech due to the difficulty in pronouncing it.

3 Likes

Since you are very deep in the subject I got some questions:

What is the influence of speed you say sentence on pitch? I know most languages undergo some phonological changes if you speed up or slow down. Example:

How does this look in Japanese if exists at all?

Any accent work at the level of whole sentence? There is change in tone at the end when you want to ask a question for example. It is pretty common feature that there is some influence within the sentence on how things sound like. Elision is good example. Anything like that in Japanese?

2 Likes

I don’t know everything about all your questions, but I think I know a few things, so I’ll share them.

At the sentence level, consider a string of 平板 words; that is, the entire sentence is flat. In that case, there is a gradual pitch drop over time. This is useful to know because when you are trying to listen for pitch, your goal shouldn’t be to ascertain if pitch lowers, but rather whether there was a significant enough drop for it to be intended as a downstep.

Another observation at the sentence level is something called “terracing.” It’s basically the idea that each subsequent pitch drop within a sentence is going to be less and less dramatic. This combines nicely with the idea of gradual pitch drop over time, because then every time you raise your pitch to drop it (eventually), that pitch is going to be a little bit lower than what it was at the start.

The gradual pitch drop and terracing effect are “reset” every time there is a pause, usually because the sentence ended, or because the clause ended (e.g.: 日本人ですが、アメリカ人らしい - by the time you reach が, your pitch should be low, but then you start a new clause and you start from scratch at your baseline initial high pitch again.)

A specific fact that’s good to know is that two 平板 words put together just stay flat (with the gradual pitch decrease I mentioned before - by the way, this happens naturally; it’s very hard to stay at the same pitch the whole time). In other words, although the graphs may show the individual 平板 words as starting low and then going and staying high, I never ever think about the first mora as low for a 平板 word because it’s almost impossible to start at the exact same pitch anyway. Besides, in Japanese, a rise in pitch is only important insofar as it helps you drop your pitch on some future mora. (The only exception being questions, I’ll get to that later.)

As for informal questions without the use of か, this is actually a place where Westerners tend to make a lot of mistakes. The pitch family of the word stays the same! But yes, there is a slight rise in pitch at the end when it’s a question. But the key takeaway is that you should still pronounce the word in the correct pitch accent family, just with a slight rise in pitch as you are finishing pronouncing the last mora of the word. So if you are asking, “is it a dog?,” don’t suddenly change it to い↓ぬ?. Instead, it’s something like いぬ↑? with there never being a downstep (or else it would change the pitch family of the word)

2 Likes

細かい説明ありがとうございます。どちらの辞書で文説を見られてを教えて頂きますか。

Tap for English

Thanks for the detailed explanation! Which dictionary do you use to see the bunsetsu?

3 Likes

Oh it’s actually from what I was calling “ProsodyKun,” the website I’ve seen you use before:

That’s what I was referring to. Just be careful with the website not to take it as gospel because sometimes both accent phrase boundary options still produce the wrong results. Not really sure why this is. In general, the “Machine learning” option is more accurate, while the “‘Bunsetsu’” option is more true to the rules, but ends up getting them wrong often. (I’m still not sure how come it won’t be explicit on the rules for things like 熱くない, as I mentioned in a previous post, but I think it’s acceptable to just say あ↓つくない instead of あ↓つく↑な↓い for the same reasons as I mentioned with 髪を切った. However, the Bunsetsu option would give something I’m pretty sure is not close to right, which is あつ↓くない whereas the Machine Learning gives あ↓つくない, which is at least understandable)

1 Like

Very interesting wikipedia page indeed.

And it says that pitch accent allows to distinguish between 鮭 and 酒, which is a sufficient proof that pitch accent is much important (just joking :wink:).

2 Likes

Ah, ok… yeah, I’ve been playing with this, and it seems good for most things, but I’m not confident in the i-adjective pitches in particular. I’m not sure why, but they seem to have more issues than the other parts of speech. I’m still a noob to pitch-accent, so please take my opinion with a grain of salt.

ありがとう😊

1 Like

Here is an interesting article I stumbled upon while searching about pitch accent: https://www.isca-speech.org/archive/archive_papers/interspeech_2008/i08_1097.pdf

It shows that even for Japanese people, it can be difficult to recognize (nearly)homophones based on their pitch accent difference, for people from regions with different pitch accent dialects. But exposure helps.

3 Likes

Something like this… :slight_smile:

そりゃわかんねえなぁ…

'correct Japanese'

それは分からないね
small ぁ is an extended sound

しらんねえおぉ!

'correct Japanese'

知らないよ!

2 Likes

WOW oh my goodness, just the first paragraph of that intro section makes my major argument on learning pitch accent! (That it aids in recognition.) It’s even got citations! In a research paper! So excited to get to read this more in depth tomorrow! If I had this from the start, it would have saved me so much argumentation in this thread…

2 Likes

ちょっと…早く過ぎたですね。<- I would need to nail something like this before a trip then xD

Confirmation bias at its best xD

Of course accent helps in recognition. That’s the reason for its existence xD

And that why I am surprised by one thing:

So the only way they use accent to make sentence clear is this? No “stress” or anything like that on the most important part? It is strange since they can’t move verb for examples. In polish you can put an accent at most important thing by making it last thing in the sentence. “I am (will) reading a book tomorrow” can be “Czytam jutro książkę”, " “Książkę czytam jutro”, “Jutro książkę czytam” or any other order you find to “feel” good (usually you put “stress” at whole last word so putting most important word there helps to make a point). I guess playing with particles will make up for lack of similar feature?

But looking for “wave” in Japanese can be useful. At least it separates sentences and clauses. So it is important thing to keep in mind. Question is if it happens even when day don’t do pause? Or it happens only because of pause?


I think I assume common knowledge again so let me explain:

There are different levels how easy and how deep our understanding is. It goes something like that:

Species (some people would want to put “race” between here and civilisation. Nothing to worry about: they did not reach “civilisation lvl of understanding” yet…)-> civilisation -> culture -> language -> dialect -> accent (here -> pitch accent) -> background (education level, place we grow up in) -> experience/personal knowledge -> time spend together

For example as member of the same species we know what crying/laughing/angry face means but if were are member of different civilisation or culture it may be harder to understand why somebody cry (people from middle ages could have hard time to figure out why you cry for month after death of a child - it sucks but don’t you have 6 other ones to focus your time on? They may die too…).

Or in my city there is famous “worst” pizza place on earth in our view. So I can say “It feels like [name of that place]” and somebody from my city will know I mean it sucks. If I say it to somebody from different city they will not understand. But if I say to my family members “[name of the place]” they will know I did expect the worst but it was quite good in the end. Nothing special, but nothing tragic.

So it helps to be better understood. But does it means you have to learn what I mean by “[name of that place]” to understand polish? Yes! But only if you want to be my family member :hugs:

Pitch accent and accent are different things.

Different accents in the sense that you explained (with the talk about race and civilisation and pizza places) might use different pitch accents in the same way that they might pronounce a vowel differently.
But a vowel has NOTHING to do with culture or social status or whatever.
Neither does pitch accent. It just is an aspect of pronunciation.
After 150 posts, maybe this is the one that will manage to explain the difference?
頑張って

5 Likes

Thank you for noticing the obvious. Some people indeed could not notice the difference. Good to make it clear :hugs:

You miss the point though…

Since I am under the impression you can’t stop yourself and keep focusing on me instead of the matter (thank you for that implicit complement. I like to believe I am interesting but more than this subject? Even my wife does not find me THAT interesting) I will help you notice that I never tried to say something like that. Don’t take it personally please. I am sure your reading comprehension is on the point in other situation. Just focus on the matter and ideas being exchange

(not by whom and how are they presented) an it should solved or misunderstanding:

I (without any irony) hope it helps :hugs:

I give up.
Put the goal posts wherever you like.
Or nowhere at all.
I can’t be bothered.
It’s like playing chess with a toddler.
Yahtzee!

3 Likes

Funny enough! I totally agree.

Have a nice day :hugs:

Another interesting example of how pitch will change meaning from;

日本人ですが、アメリカ人らしい

アメリカ人らしい - I’ve heard they’re American
/ーーーー \___ (pitch contour drops during 人)

アメリカ人らしい - They seem to be quite American (They act like an American person)
/ーーーーーー \_ (pitch contour drop during しい)

In this example it is clear from the context the second is actually correct, however without the 日本人ですが you would have no idea what they meant without pitch accent

3 Likes

After speaking with MacFinch in private chat, I think we are on the same page, it’s just that clarity is perhaps being lost in all these messages. If I understand correctly, he’s not denying pitch accent is a thing and is important, as I understand it anyway, he’s arguing the importance for beginners in getting it spot on.

3 Likes

Just to be precise: I believe that for some people it may be impossible goal (speech defect because of medical reason and so on) and for some people it may be even not important (“I just want to read manga and novel, but I would never move to Japan” kind of people), and presenting pitch-accent as essential may make them give up. It did to me like twice before.

I am very happy though I took a stand in this discussion because it proved me wrong on a few thing, and maybe - just maybe - pitch-accent is something possible to me. Which is huuuuuuge news for me! I really hope to be able to understand Japanese poetry at emotional level before I will turn 60 xD Pitch seems to be important for that. I can understand english poetry only on intellectual lvl. I never “feel the author” as I can do in Polish.

And since it is of importance to me to deeper my understanding of Japanese I have to respectfully turn down an offer to not take a stand in this kind of debates. They are best way I know to figure out where I got something wrong.

I do apologise for awful delivery. I am working on it :hugs:

As most human being (even more so) I am often wrong, often misread peoples intention, and even more often I am simply not aware I made a mistake or am too stupid to understand something. I am sincerely ashamed of that port of myself and I do my best to reduce it.

I will start from making my post shorter maybe? :sweat_smile::joy:
And less often? :crazy_face:

2 Likes