(Please read) Unlocking Japanese, may have discovered something

Japanese
#21

As a synaesthete, I can tell you that color is pervasive. And that there are certain default values for colors that are oddly common around the globe. I see normally, but my brain adds a layer of color detail that seems to be missing from most peoples’ experiences. I also get really annoying texture and vibration layers. Both of my sons experience this to a lesser degree, so it is possible an entire group of humans could be genetically coded for synaesthesia.

Phonology is not something I have studied in depth, but am now much more curious about. I have looked at commonalities among the various language groups I am familiar with (English -> latin/greek, German, Ukrainian -> Slavonic) as the representation of phonetics in transliterated Ukrainian is always something of an issue and can radically change meanings if done improperly. Therefore understanding the „value“ of the phoneme is quite important. If the intention of the phoneme is not clear, ooof. Weird, untranslatable crap can happen, particularly with gendering.

German, not so much. If we aren’t sure, we just stick another noun on to clarify things. There is some phonetic artifacts, but nothing like the more eastern languages.

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#22

https://kisslibrary.net/book/ca78b6140ed42561b663 This book written by a japanese person explores the concept much more deeply. If you click on ‘preview’ a lot of it is available without buying.
The author states himself that with only a few hundred words you can ‘know’ enough phonologically to be able to guess the meaning of almost all other words based on sound cues.

As for colors, remember when language was made and the tecnology available at the time. Describing colors would have been nearly impossible based purely on sound cues. Hell… Even english attributes colors to states of mind. Blue, sad. Angry/love, red. White, purity/innocence. Black, evil. Does this mean all english scholars were tripped out on mushrooms too?. Colors reflecting mood is an almost universal concept across all languages.

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#23

Mune is also lungs, where you get full of air and then empty it to breathe…and it’s not even the same air that goes in and out! maybee that explains it?

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#24

Although this book was translated rather poorly, I believe you may find this segment rather interesting. The idea is already accepted amongst japanese, just not widely known.

Watanabe Masamichi-
. Vocabulary

Every Japanese consonates and vowels posess certain meanings. Basically, one letter has one meaning (except for h and s, which each has two meanings), but it is possible to categorize further. Concepts and classifications are descibed at the biggining of each letter (consonate/vowel), and the related words follow. The illustrations are supposed to be (I wish) the suppliment to the written explanations.

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#25

Thanks for your input! I did mention that Mune originally meant lungs. It could be due to the emptying and filling as you say, or simply due to internal organs not being able to be ‘seen’. I like the emptying/filling explanation though.

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#26

I like that as well.

The breasts hide the heart which contains your “knowledge” [心得] . I understand it as meaning it contains your soul, or whole being, not like the practical knowledge held by your brain.

But in Japanese Heart and Brain both holds so many meanings like soul, knowledge and so on. It looks like a delicious rabbit hole to plunge into the history and era around the invention of their writing systems. Kambun might also hold some other answers but I’m not there yet haha!

Good luck my friends, i’ll keep reading about your nice discoveries as you post them, it’s too fascinating! :smile:

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#27

You’re exactly right here. Actually due to much of the history of the japanese language being shrouded in mystery, it really does make it an exciting rabbit hole to plunge into. There are many questions that remain unsolved, even to the japanese people themselves.

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#28

So I agree that the sounds can have certain connotations or feelings to them. I’ve read part of this book on onomatopoeia and it’s quite interesting. I just don’t think it applies as universally as you’re making it out to be. Languages simply aren’t that consistent.

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#29

Maybe not these days. Obviously this theory doesn’t hold any weight when it comes to katakana loan words etc, but the kanji allows it to show uniform consistency with native words.

#30

I believe it applies universally to a heuristic extent. That is to say, if you know what ‘red’ and ‘fruit’ is, memorizing a mental picture of an apple the first time you see it will not be hard. I believe sound along with kanji works the same way. It gives a 70% meaning upon examination whose ‘full’ meaning becomes obvious on learning.

#31

I should adress this point you made here, because honestly it is a very good point. It should definitely not be misinterpreted as ‘ceases to exist’, rather ‘exists in an unknown state’, or a state that sits outside of what is perceivable. Hence why I think む correlates best to ‘unknown’.
I believe it is for this reason as well that japanese verbs show continuity in the same places english verbs show cessation. Such as ‘He is dead’, vs 彼は死んでいる。Japanese allows things to exist in states that english doesn’t.

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#32

Even if such a pattern existed for 和語, how could it possibly exist for 漢語? Those words (or at least their kanji and readings) were borrowed from China at various points in history, taking the Chinese pronunciations at the time and approximating them into Japanese.

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#33

That is where it gets interesting. I believe the world view concept may have come from Chinese, the concept of there being more than a 'speaker’centric perspective, but the extension into uniformity I think was further evolved in Japan.

For example I think they chose specific kanji for use as kana as a ‘base’ meaning, from which they could further inform meaning. If you think about it, the fact they chose specific kanji from which to model ‘kana’ purposely, is far more logical than some guy just going ‘oh that kanji is pretty, lets make that the Ka sound’.

I think the way they made it work in a uniform manner is by utilising both kun and onyomi readings. The kunyomi expanding on the meaning of the onyomi, with both together giving a pretty clear picture (something chinese can’t do due to only having single readings of every kanji).

An english example. let’s say there are 3 kanji that are read ‘car’, however, the extra readings of each is ‘sedan’ ‘race’ ‘transport’. suddenly have 3 extra readings don’t matter, because they add to the original meaning, not subtract from it. And when those kanji are in compound words, it jumps back to the original meaning due to the additional kanji giving extra meaning.

Also keep in mind that Japanese changed the meanings of lots of chinese characters to suit their language better. Why would they do that without reason? Something we both have to remember is that the people who came up with the language probably dedicated their entire lives to this. Just because we live in the future compared to them doesn’t make us smarter at all. If I gave you 60 years and said 'write me a kanji guide for learners that is more user friendly than Heisig, I bet my butt you would be able to come up with something so much better than Heisig that they barely even compare.

As for saying languages simply aren’t that consistent, you are absolutely right. However, isn’t that the overall goal of a language? We have to assume that all languages did their best to be as consistent as possible, regardless of how successful they were at it.

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#34

The book link looked very interesting on the preview, I’d like to read more. Thank you for sending and at least have a engaging a conversation on phonology as there appears to be some practical substance for everyday learners for at least some basic knowledge.

Whether there is trans/intrans 向ける、向こう、or just 向, there is a point of reference whether we are using “aim for”, “opposite”, “over there”. There is needs to be a “here” in order to have “there” but this opposite is not necessarily an “unknown” and certainly not “empty”

This sounds better in this instance but ‘perceivable’ wording is almost to specific. You mentioned ‘anti state’ earlier and that was the best version I heard yet, at least for this one. You can even stretch this toward dark matter and the balance it plays in the universe (much like 無)

That said, going through the various kanji for Mu, the theory breaks down into a contrived ‘square peg/round hole’ scenario from what I see. But perhaps there are a stack of words that can fit nicely and where the lineage of phonology makes total sense but I wouldn’t force it unless logical (it’s just too confusing).

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#35

I bought the phonology book, will gradually read up, thank you for the reference.

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#36

It’s a good book for sure, bought it myself. Some of the ideas can definitely be expanded on I reckon.

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#37

Actually this reminds me of an important point. Maybe the best one I have so far for this theory. If you go with the ‘single kana have single meanings’, every transative/intransative verb becomes obvious. Mainly due to the ‘e’ sound always showing object and ‘く’ sound always showing movement toward the speaker. The kana that changes in the pairs shows audibly where the action is oriented

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#38

Ok so I have been cataloging two syllable verbs as I learn them, looking at “trends” for lack of a better word.

This is soo interesting.

#39

There are definite trends. Sometimes if it doesn’t make sense, you re-examine the kanji or the english meaning to see where/who the verb action is aimed at and it makes sense again. The most obvious trend is with か、け、く、こ which tend to indicate that the subject is benefiting from the action, or something is coming toward them in some way. Next most obvious are probably は、へ、ほ、さ、そ which all tend to have an outward oriented meaning, either leaving the subject or happening in their periphery. き tends to mean the overall state of something (mood, feeling, etc), I believe this is why verbs with く as the second syllable change to い and not き. Might also explain why くる changes to こない in the negative (こ being the speakers destination marker like I originally thought).

#40

I think it’s important to remember that a theory is only as good as its predictive power.

It’s one thing to explain things you already know, quite another to use your theory to understand things you don’t.

Would you have been able to guess that nothing + potential to move + core of a まま means “son”?

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