Question around 手前 sentence example

[samburv]

In the 手前 grammar (手前 (JLPT N2) | Bunpro – Japanese Grammar Explained)

オルガンをもっと手前に配置してください

For this example sentence, it looks to me like
NounをAdverb手前。。。
Is a verb being omitted?
Or is there another rule outside of
Verb + 手前
Nounの手前
？

[Jose7822]

That’s a good question. According to Sampling, that sentence is incorrect:

But who knows .

[Asher]

This sentence is grammatically fine. In this case 手前 is acting as a noun similar to こちら, and the に is just the location particle. The translation is a bit dodgy so I will fix that now. It should be ‘Please position the organ more in front of me’.

[imsamuka]

Adverbs like もっと can be used to modify nouns then? I thought に was being used to transform 手前 into a adverb itself, and motto was adding to it’s meaning, which then, would change 配置して

[Jose7822]

I think what’s confusing is that the explanation says this:

Verb + 手前
Noun + の手前

But we’re also seeing this as well:

Noun + を手前

Perhaps adding parentheses, like you usually do, that include this (and other variations, if they exist) would mitigate the confusion?

[Asher]

@Jose7822 @imsamuka I think what happened here is that a sentence with 手前 as a regular noun crept its way into the other sentences without us noticing. There are no special rules for this and I wouldn’t even classify it as ‘grammar’, it’s just a location noun being used as a location noun.

There are many grammar points that actually behave this way (sometimes they just get used without any special meaning at all), and we get used to seeing them as ‘grammar’ so expect that other meaning. I’ll get this sentence changed to something that actually reflects the grammar and add that it can also be used as a plain noun as a fun-fact.

[imsamuka]

I see. But this aside, why an adverb (もっと) is being used before a noun (手前)? In my understanding, adverbs can only come before verbs, no?

Or as I said before, もっと手前に itself is being used as a big adverb to 配置して? In my understanding, に can be also used to transform nouns into adverbs, like in ように, so it makes sense, i think?

[Asher]

In short, word order does not matter in Japanese . It’s just a matter of knowing words, and then knowing which word that word ties to because of what it is. I guess it is the same as something like ‘Today it was really cold’, vs ‘Today, really, it was cold’ in English. The first one sounds more grammatically accurate, and the second sounds more like someone is emphasizing something in conversation.

Just asked @Haru about it and she was confused why I even asked if word order matters . It doesn’t matter so long as everyone knows the adverb is connected to the verb.

Edit - Maybe think of it this way. In English, we only add ‘ly’ to some adverbs right? Japanese is the same with に. We don’t say ‘today it is verily cold’, we say today it is very cold’. Adverbs of amount/quantity obey this rule the most. This applies to both English and Japanese.

[samburv]

Thanks a lot Asher, that clears things up for me.

I think if I had read the 手前 outside of this grammar section context, it acting as a location noun would have been how I would have understood it (albeit I would have probably not described it as clearly as you).