Questions regarding the Details for "ka" for the 'or' definition

Japanese
#1

  1. The structure is shown as (A) + ka + (B) + ka, yet ALL of the examples omit the second ‘ka.’ If the second ‘ka’ is omitted in conversations, for example, then why isn’t that flagged out like it is for ‘to’ as in ‘and’?

  2. In the example: “Are those mom’s shoes? Dad’s shoes?”, it’s making the point that ‘or’ (quote)

"is performing the same role that a question mark would, or that a change in tone of voice would in spoken language.

‘Would you like tea? coffee?’ (said with a rising tone).

This nuance of か can be used after the dictionary form of almost any word in Japanese. However, using です or ます will change the nuance from ‘presenting possibilities’, to ‘asking a formal question’, so should be avoided.
(unquote)

I don’t understand why changing the nuance from ‘presenting possibilities’ to ‘asking a formal question’ should be avoided.

If a waiter asks me if want tea or coffee, I would expect that the waiter will be waiting for my response regardless of whether he is ‘presenting possibilities’ or asking a formal question.’ So why is it important to avoid a formal question?

2 Likes
#2

I can see how that explanation is confusing. If you look at the resource section for that grammar point, they provide a link to this website which explains か, and its various usages, much better:

https://www.japaneseammo.com/all-about-か-its-not-only-a-question-marker/

HTH!

3 Likes
#3

Unfortunately the Japanese Ammo link I posted earlier has some translation and other minor mistakes, but they’re few, so it’s still good. For that reason, and because I love this YouTube channel, I’ll post this video as well:

I highly recommend it, if you want a more detailed explanation (with examples) of a grammar point.

4 Likes
#4

WOW, information overload! So, someday I’ll actually understand all those nuances…hope so! Thanks for this video and the previous URL.

But this video highlighted my first question, i.e., all of BP’s examples omitted the second ‘ka’ even though their structure shows the second ‘ka’ should be there. Conversely, all the applicable examples in this video show the second ‘ka.’ So why would BP leave it out without an explanation?

1 Like
#5

The answer to your question is context. If you see that the second word doesn’t have か, AND there’s no question mark after it, then か is acting as “or”. In that case it’s just a statement.

However, if there’s a question mark where the second か should be, then the question mark basically replaces the second か, and now it’s an actual question. Examples:

犬か猫。”Dogs or Cats” (Just a statement).

犬か猫？”Dogs or Cats?” (A question).

If you just say 「犬か猫か」 by itself it can sound rude, or “anime like” as the Japanese Ammo site says. This structure is best used within a sentence, as in「犬か猫かどうか分からない」= Whether it’s a cat or a dog, I don’t know.”

In spoken language, you’ll be able to distinguish these by the rise in tone that’s common when asking questions.

HTH!

2 Likes
#6

Thanks for the follow up!

I can understand your statement that saying the below by itself can sound rude or ‘anime like.’

But the anime videos used both 'ka’s; granted they were used within a sentence which is the same with the BP examples, yet, again, BP omitted the second ‘ka.’

I’ll just have to let time and experience lead me to understanding these nuances. Thanks again!!!

1 Like
#7

Are you referring to sentences like this one?

それはお母さんの靴か、お父さんの靴。

Yes, they should’ve put a question mark at the end. If you look at the English translation, they did just that.

Another thing that’s confusing about that lesson is what they’re saying about adding です and ます before か. I believe what they’re trying to say is that these (です and ます) are not used before か within a sentence. As in:

犬ですか猫ですかどうか分からない。(Wrong usage)

Like I said earlier, I don’t think this grammar point is well explained in BunPro, which is why I posted the other sources. Just ignore BunPro here until they revise it (which I’m sure they will), and study the others instead.

2 Likes
#8

Yes, that was one of the sentences I was referring to!

Yes, I found their statement about ‘desu’ and ‘masu’ before ‘ka’ confusing. So, if what you interpreted as their intention is true, then that would get rid of the confusion. Thanks!

And, yes, I’m ready to move on :slight_smile: thanks to you!

1 Like