[QUESTON 2 LIVE] Do *you* know the answer?! (Questions that even natives can't answer...)

The General Idea

Hello everyone. Over my time learning Japanese I have accrued a few different books that focus on the difference in usage of certain phrases or grammar. These days I generally know the answers to these kind of questions (barring keigo…) but I thought it might be helpful for others to go over some of these topics as a community. The title is kind of clickbait but some of the books I own are aimed at natives and, besides, which I know from my experiencing asking natives that a lot of these questions aren’t easy to explain as they likely have never had need to think about it.

The Format

I will post a question from one of the books I own every few days and hopefully people can chip in with their own answers and interpretations and we can start a discussion. A day or so after posting I will give the answer that is given in the book and my own comments. I’m hoping we can have an interesting discussion.

The books are all in Japanese so I will provide the question in the original and provide a translation. As for the answers, as a lot of the questions will be useful for people around N5-N3 (although will hopefully be interesting for anyone at any level) I will translate/provide summarised answers in English.

Feel free to add your thoughts regardless of your level. It goes without saying but if you think someone has made an error then please be polite when pointing it out and try to explain why they may have misunderstood things.

The first question will follow shortly…

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Question One:

「バスが来ています」と言った時、バスはどこにいますか。

English

When you say “バスが来ています”, where is the bus?

This is a tricky one and something that stuck around as an issue for me personally for a while. The core of the question here is whether something is happening now or has already happened. So the basic options here are either the bus is coming or the bus has already come and is here now.

What do you think the answer is? Are they both possibly correct? Is there some special Japanese tense which doesn’t exist in English? Is it ambiguous for learners but clear for natives? Is this different for different verbs? :man_shrugging: :thinking:


Source: This question is from 外国人が日本語教師によくする100の質問

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「バスが来ています」と言った時、バスはどこにいますか。

My immediate impression after reading the sentence is that the bus exists in the state of arriving, meaning it’s not coming soon, it hasn’t already arrived and stopped, but it’s visible and nearly there.

Not for any grammatical reason in particular, but that’s just about the only time I would say the bus is coming. It’s odd to say the bus is coming when it’s nowhere to be seen, or when it has already arrived.

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Hi!

Thank you so much for this thread. This is something that I’m quite interested in, as it somehow shows the way the Japanese deep mind (if I may say so) works and is really helpful to gain thorough uderstanding of the language.

My answer from the top of my Spanish head would be that the bus is coming and is somewhere up the line. My feeling is that you may or may not see it, but you know it is in the process of coming (e.g. as per schedule, notification, line of sight,…).

Now, thinking about it a second time, I reckon you could also say that the second possibility is correct, as the bus has come and is now in the state of having come. This is the usage of ている that I find difficult to fully interiorize.

So I would say that both answers are possible, depending on the context.

If I may, once you give the answer, if only one is correct, could you please show how the other possibility would be phrased?

Thank you again, 本当に楽しみにしています。(or would it be します? :thinking: :wink: )

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Hi!,
this is a very interesting topic, thanks for this idea !
Without thinking too much about this sentence I would say that the bus is coming. I imagine that this would be something one could says when waiting for the bus at the bus stop, and the bus would be visible at the corner of the street.
If the bus has arrived, could we not say 「バスが来ました 」?
Thinking about this twice, I had doubts, but I feel somehow that when we say 「 バスが来ています」the bus is in the state of coming, so it cannot be there yet. So we need to use past tense to say that the bus is here, because the action is over as we speak.

I am curious to see what will be the correct answer !

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I would understand that statement as the bus having already arrived.
With 来る and 行く, using ている should assume that the action has already been performed, no?
If they said バスが来ます, that should make it clear that the event yet to have happened.
Just my interpretation, please feel free to correct this if I’m thinking about this in an incorrect way.

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Surely it’s not there yet, if it was there wouldn’t バスが来てあります make more sense?

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I want to say バスが来ています means that “its coming/on its way here” per schedual or whatever. But thinking just from how the opposite works, バスが行っています would mean “its currently out and about already, not here and not activley leaving right now”. Which would lead me to think that バスが来ています is actually talking about the bus already being here currently, stationed and awaiting passengers.

curious to see the answer and looking forward to future posts :partying_face:

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I think it means that the bus is already here (“It has come and is now in the state of that action being compelte”). Same as 結婚しています meaning someone is married (and not “in the process of getting married”).

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I imagine, と言った時 is the key to the question, as “the bus is coming” isn’t something which is currently being said, but was said in the past. There was a time, before, when someone said the bus was coming, so it’s probably arrived in the present.

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~ている is ambiguous. It has two relevant meanings (three total at level n5 according to bunpro).

In the state of, as in 結婚をしている, am married

In the process of, as in 家事をしている, am doing housework.

I don’t want to spoil the fun, so … according to my native speaker sources, the answer would be different if the subject were, for example プレゼント。

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Some interesting answers so far - thank you for the response! Nice to see how different people think about the same sentence.

I will post the answer and my comments tomorrow (Sunday) and a new question on Tuesday. Until then,

If you think you know the answer or, even better, you can explain why that is the answer then go ahead!

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Verbs like 行く, 来る, and 帰る express a change of state and generally do not indicate an action in progress. So “バスが来ています” mean “The bus has arrived”, However, they can be used to express habitual or repeated actions. For example, 毎日、バスが来ています means “The bus comes every day.”
Remember, the ている form has six different uses, and its meaning changes depending on the verb.

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Here is a related example that teases at this thread.

  • ビルを建ている。
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Answer One:

(Posting later than I said as this accidentally grew larger than I expected.)

The main source for the explanation below is 外国人が日本語教師によくする100の質問 however I have condensed a lot and added my own commentary and extra information where I think it makes it easier for an English speaker/non-native Japanese speaker to understand.

The Simple Version

In terms of where the bus is the sentence can be interpreted in two different ways. First, the bus is here now. Second, the bus is not here but is definitely coming this way. The first interpretation would be the default interpretation without context and the second interpretation is feasible given certain contextual hints.

This may be unexpected as many learners associate the Japanese ている form with the English present progressive (-ing form) primarily and the corresponding English present progressive phrase would mean the bus isn’t here yet, even if it is close by.

  • The bus is coming. (English present progressive)
  • The bus is here. (Closer to the first interpretation of the Japanese)

As for a practical answer to the question, I asked multiple natives where they thought the bus was. Everyone said they can’t say but that the bus is here/close.

Sidenote: Some of you brought up the fact that in English (and Spanish) you would imagine saying “The bus is coming” when the bus is visible. I think that is quite an interesting observation and I think the stress on the action just having happened/happening presently is quite a good shorthand link between languages. Consider the below sentences:

  • おばあちゃんが来ているわよ。(Grandma is here! → Grandma has come!)
  • 手紙が来ているよ。(A letter is here! → A letter came (for you)!)

In these sentences the おばあちゃん and the letter are both present already but the emphasis is on the fact it is happening now. The letter is already in hand, presumably, and not down the road. We don’t take a bus in hand so saying when it is “here” is a little more ambiguous. I think perhaps this link between languages is a bit of a false friend for reason which I will elucidate in my own comments at the end.

The Slightly More Complicated Version (and the “Why”)

So why is it that ている has different meanings with different verbs? And why does it seem to be ambiguous with some verbs like 来る?

In grammar there is a concept called “aspect” (アスペクト or 相(そう) in Japanese). If tense tells us when a verb takes place then aspect tells us the progress of that verb. To keep things short I won’t expand much on this but it may well come up again in this thread and I can get into it then! The reason I bring this up is that a linguist called 金田一(きんだいち)tried to categorise Japanese verbs based on their relationship to lexical aspect and the ている form. He has four categories:

  1. 状態動詞 (じょうたいどうし) - Stative Verbs
    These are verbs which do not use the ている form. E.g., ある, いる, potential form verbs like 話せる, 見える, わかる, etc.
  2. 継続動詞 (けいぞくどうし) - Continuative Verbs
    These verbs show actions (動作動詞) instead of states and when using the ている form they show a continuing (progressing) action. E.g., 聞く, 読む、食べる、降る. This is the closest to the English progressive (-ing form) and what most learners have in mind when first learning about ている.
  3. 瞬間動詞 (しゅんかんどうし) - Instantaneous Verbs
    These verbs also show actions (also 動作動詞) instead of states however these actions are binary; either they have happened or they haven’t happened. This means that when ている is used they show that an action has happened and continues to be in the state of having happened. E.g., 死ぬ、知る、終わる.
  4. 第四種の動詞 (だいよんしゅのどうし) - Fourth Type Verbs
    These verbs are always used with ている. As the vague name suggests these ones are quite hard to describe well so I won’t go into it here. E.g., 似る, 優れる.

As you can see, the use of ている tells you the aspect. That is, it tells us the progress or state of the verb. This progress or state differs depending on the type of verb.

But, wait…

Perhaps you have noticed but some of the verbs given as examples above don’t fully fit into the categories given above and seem to straddle between categories. For example:

  • 田中は今クラシックを聞いています。(継続動詞・continuative)
    Tanaka is listening to classical music now.
  • その件ならそちらの課長さんから聞いています。(瞬間動詞・instantaneous)
    If it is about that then I have (already) heard about it from your section head.

Or how about:

  • それはわかる (状態動詞・stative)
  • それはわかってる (瞬間動詞・instantaneous)

I’ll leave the interpretation of the above two as an exercise for the reader.

So how does this apply to 来る?By the categories above the primary classification of 来る would be as a 瞬間動詞 (instantaneous verb). I.e., it is a binary action that either has or hasn’t happened and appending the ている form means that the action has happened and continues to have happened. In English this would mean the thing in question has come and continues to be in the situation of having come. In more natural English it means that the thing in question is here. But 来る can also be used with ている as a 継続動詞 (continuative verb) in certain contexts. In those cases it would be equivalent to the English present progressive, -ing form (現在進行). This usage may be rephrased, in a slightly forced way, in Japanese as:

  • バスは来つつある
  • バスは来る途中である

With this newfound knowledge you can now hopefully more easily analyse ている when it comes up in unexpected ways and you can hopefully also see how the ている form doesn’t really correspond to the English - ing form outside of only limited cases. Speaking of which…

My Tangential Comments Regarding ている

These comments are non-essential and explore a tangent I was thinking about. Feel free to skip if you already have a headache! I’ve cut significant arguments, especially about English grammar, to get to the point so if a conclusion looks implausible then that is probably why.

In the book 認知と言語: 日本語の世界・英語の世界, the authors explore the differences between Japanese and English from the point of view of cognitive linguistics. In it they argue that the differences in the way ている functions in Japanese and the progressive (-ing) functions in English is due to a difference in the way perceptions are put into words between the two languages. I won’t go deeply into it here but they make some quite interesting observations. What’s relevant is their contention that the Japanese ている form fundamentally comes from an in situ viewpoint and the English progressive (-ing) comes from out of situ viewpoint. What this means in practice is that Japanese biases a view of things from how they are perceived now and then can be traced back to some origin that can logically be concluded from the currently perceived situation. Conversely, English biases a viewpoint that is more detached and considers a more objective beginning and ending of the action/verb in question, not just the perceived situation as it is now. The authors spend a whole book arguing for this idea so forgive me for being a bit vague and unconvincing in presenting it. I will try show the argument through examples:

  • 丘の上に城が立っている。(A castle stands on top of the hill.)
  • 彼のことはよく知っている。(I know him well.)
  • 二人はよく似ている。(Those two look exactly alike.)

As you can see, the Japanese uses ている whilst in English the progressive is not favoured or is even ungrammatical in these sentences. The reason why, according to the analysis above, is that from the Japanese viewpoint this is a judgement on how things are perceived now. The castle is standing on the hill now (presumably built in the past but with no comment on the future). I am knowing about him now (and learnt about him at some point but with no comment on my continued knowing about him). Those two are looking alike now (and presumably did so from some past point although, again, no comment on if or when this situation will end). In contrast the English progressive would imply both a beginning and an objective end, thus a form of temporality. That means that if the castle were standing in the hill then it’s implied that at some point it will not be. If I am knowing him then it’s implied that at some point I won’t. If they are looking alike then they will cease to. You can see this difference in something feeling temporary or fixed in English by considering the following sentences:

  • Mary lives in Tokyo.
  • Mary is living in Tokyo.

For a native speaker the second sentence implies that Mary is living in Tokyo now but at some point will not be. Normally this would imply the speaker knows of some reason why Mary won’t be living in Tokyo soon. Compare this with the Japanese sentence:

  • メアリーは東京に住んでいる。

Mary moved to Tokyo or was born there or something and lives there now. There is no implied end point or temporary nature behind the Japanese.

The above observation means that even when a sentence seems to be identical in English and Japanese there is actually a hidden difference in the implication.

  • John is reading a book.
  • ジョンが本を読んでいる。

These sentences are essentially identical on the surface but arguably they’re fundamentally different. The English implies an end point to the reading whilst the Japanese simply comments on the fact that the reading is currently progressing with no implications about the end of the action.

Thinking in terms of aspect, the progressive aspect in English and Japanese can perhaps be seen to be essentially different.

Your Comments

I originally was planning on replying to everyone but I already accidentally sunk too much time into this. What I have done instead is made a note of topics that you guys have touched upon and I will try and make sure those topics are included at some point in future posts.

I tried to pick a juicy first topic so people would reply but this was perhaps a bit too juicy (笑)I really appreciate all the responses though and look forward to seeing what you have to say about future questions as well!

Feel free to ask questions, comments or observations. I’ll post a new (simpler…) question tomorrow!

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Thank you for starting this thread. It’s interesting to read the differing opinions on this grammar point, and your answer / explanation was educational for me.
I looked up the book you’ve cited and saw it being inexpensive. Would you recommend this book, as a whole, and do you have any other book recommendations regarding grammar?

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I have always assumed ている to be a speaker perspective type word, where the いる is them literally saying that they are the person that is in the state of viewing that verb action. For example 丘の上に城が立っている could either be ‘there is a castle standing at the top of the hill’ (the speaker is viewing it now), or ‘there -was- a castle standing at the top of the hill’ (the last time the speaker saw it/heard about it, it was still standing).

This comes across a lot clearer in words like 来ている etc that directly relate to the physical location of the speaker at this present moment, so cannot be interpreted as past tense in some situations like the above example. Since バスが来ています indicates the speaker’s intimate knowledge, and the verb 来る itself is only able to be used by someone that is at that location right now, it is either close enough that they can see it coming, or it is already there.

Take with a big grain of salt though, as this viewpoint is nothing more than a personal feeling about ている in general.

I guess a good example would be someone saying something like なんで私のことジロジロ見ているの! where the standard translation would be ‘Why are you oggling at me’!, but the way I’d actually interpret it is ‘Why am I being submitted to you oggling at me’ (speaker is the person experiencing the discomfort of being stared at).

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" 1. 状態動詞 (じょうたいどうし) - Stative Verbs
These are verbs which do not use the ている form. E.g., ある, いる, potential form verbs like 話せる, 見える, わかる, etc."

I feel like I have seen わかっている before, is it true it doesn’t ever use the ている form?

I was under the belief that わかる is about your present understanding, わかっている is more about the continuous state of understanding, i.e “I already knew that” sort of feel.

Edit: To comment on the original point of the thread though, I interpreted it immediately to mean that the bus is already where the speaker is. Meaning it’s at the bus stop presumably idle. However its interesting to see the other answers to the thread, and I suppose after rethinking it, I wouldn’t find it odd to mean you can physically see the bus arriving either, even if its still moving.

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the bus is very close and approaching the location of the speaker or the person being spoken to. This phrase indicates that the bus is already in the process of arriving and is likely visible or just about to reach the stop or destination.

In Japanese, 来ています (kiteimasu) implies that the action of “coming” is ongoing, so the bus is actively on its way and almost there. It suggests an imminent arrival rather than a distant one.

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Are you talking about the 外国人が日本語教師によくする100の質問 book? It is quite a specific book so I would be reticent to recommend it as a general grammar book, honestly. The target audience is native Japanese speakers who are teaching foreigners Japanese so the authors assume you are familiar with a lot of technical terms and naturally do not provide much in the way of interpretations of example sentences as the meaning should be clear to natives, generally speaking. It also goes without saying but the book is entirely in Japanese. Some of the information and all translations in the explanation I gave above are just my own. I would say you need to be at least N2 level to get anything of value out of it and preferably N1 or above. If you are a confident reader and are super interested in deeper explanations behind common Japanese learning issues or are interested in teaching Japanese then I would recommend it. Probably there are better options for general grammar guides for learners though.

As for general grammar guides, I learnt mostly with Bunpro, the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series, and Google. If you are more advanced and are interested in linguistics stuff then I would suggest browsing in a bookshop or online and picking out something that tickles your fancy.

Someone else actually DM’d me with a similar question so I may put together a short list of book I want to use as a reference for this thread and post it later. Hopefully that will be of more help.

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