Quitting Bunpro (kind of)

Hello, hope you’re doing well, whoever you are reading this. Due to my Japanese learning goals for 2024 I have decided to stop using Bunpro. I thought I’d write my thoughts on it as someone who has been using it for a couple of years and got to about halfway through the N1 lessons (from 0). Also some general rambling about my own Japanese learning journey for the sake of context.

First, how/why/when did I use Bunpro?

When I started learning Japanese I was in a very big hurry and I rushed through Genki 1 and 2 without understanding much and then forced myself to start engaging with native media and doing vocab with JPDB. I tried a kanji recognition deck for maybe 100 kanji but hated it. I started Bunpro in the first month or two of starting studying but I didn’t really start until after I had “finished” the Genkis. I was gonna be moving to Japan about in about half a year so I was in a very naive hurry. I added all of N5 through to the around the end of N3 on Bunpro and had about 4k vocab cards on JPDB when I came to Japan after those 6 months. My level was cringe inducingly bad (still is…苦笑), especially as I had never spoken before, but I am now very glad that I pushed to get those basics somewhat in my head before I got here. In the first month of being here I realised my grasp on basic grammar was nowhere near as good as I had fooled myself into thinking so I reset my Bunpro to zero and started again. The focus from then on was roughly going in the JLPT order and adding only things I already had seen, already understood somewhat, or things I thought were conceptually easy enough to learn without much bother. As my level has increased I have found that “mining” grammar points becomes harder and harder, in the end perhaps taking a week at a time to find new ones (as they appear on Bunpro). I would guess about 70 of the N1 grammar points I haven’t seen (or have no memory of) and it would take me a year to “catch them all”. Not only that but grammar, for me, became fairly easy to pick up at a certain point, normally with only seeing a pattern two or three times being enough for it to enter my passive knowledge (not active). On top of that, I have no special interest in the JLPT nor do I need to be producing the majority of N1 grammar points, especially the remaining ones. My retention rate has also always averaged over 95% since I reset, I think. Basically I was starting to see less and less reward for using Bunpro, especially as my goals don’t really align with the use case for it much anymore.

Positive feedback:

90% of the grammar explanations are good or great or better, striking a balance between informative, interesting, and not waffling but not too short. I especially like the fact that there are more detailed explanations even for N2 and N1 grammar which normally is taught using a single line explanation or just synonyms with a nuance note. That approach is servicable but it is nice to read a bit more about these things, with example sentences, as Bunpro offers.

The cloze type question, including nuance hints and the bounce back hint things, are the biggest strength of Bunpro in my opinion. They get you to think about the nuance of the grammar.

The Bunpro staff and their responsiveness to user feedback is great. Okay, sometimes bugs or errors can hang in limbo for a while but on the whole they are extrmely responsive and seem to be made up of people who are seriously dedicated to improving Bunpro as a service and also people who care about the Japanese language and learning/teaching Japanese.

The resource sections are great. I use them as a reference sometimes still now.

Neutral feedback:

I have no interest in doing vocab on Bunpro and wish that the development of vocab was put on the backburner for longer however I understand that many users wanted/want it and that it is probably also a good business decision for Bunpro so consider this just a personal opinion rather than anything else.

I think Bunpro could market itself better. I guess this is on hold until more features are out of beta.

Negative (but constructive) feedback:

About 10% of grammar explanations are below the standard of the others and could probably do with being re-written or tidied up. I know you guys on the content team probably know this though.

The SRS itself, as in the algorithm, is very bad. I only used Bunpro for about 10-20 minutes a day almost the whole time I used it but at least half that time was on reviews which were way way way too easy. A proper SRS system would stop this from happening. Equally the lack of “fuzz” or whatever it is called means you can’t work through a large backlog all at once as it will keep coming back as a lump later on (or a series of lumps). I know Wanikani uses a similar system but that system is also bad so it is not an excuse. Developing a great SRS algorithm, especially for something as complex as grammar, would be a lifetime’s work however that doesn’t mean the algorithm can’t be at least a bit more advanced than it is.

A better onboarding process, both for Japanese itself and for Bunpro, for complete beginners would go a long way (I know you guys probably know this but it is worth saying).

A wider range of advanced grammar. I know you guys have a lot, more than most, but more things outside of the JLPT would be helpful. I know N0 is probably coming “soon” so this is likely already not an issue behind the scenes.

More “meta” information about the Japanese language and grammar, preferably outside of the SRS itself, would help things feel a lot smoother as an all in one resource.

What am I doing for grammar now then?

I have basically reset everything I was doing in regards to Japanese. I am qutting Bunpro (about halfway through N1 as mentioned above) and quitting JPDB (10k+ vocab cards) and starting again on Anki with the new scheduler. I am learning grammar now simply by adding sentences with elements I am not firm on. For vocab, I am moving to a monolingual set up and being a lot more selective about what I mine. I have learnt Japanese at a solid pace, better than most, for the last two years. However…I would really like to get to a lower advanced level by the end of 2024 so I would like to try and go all in on it. I want my SRS to be simple, in one place, taking less than 30 minutes a day and I want to just use Japanese as much as I possibly can without going insane. I am at a level where I can learn from Japanese in Japanese so I think I am ready for my next step. I want to go from a learner of Japanese to an undisputed user of Japanese.

Why might I come back to Bunpro?

If I do the N1, which I have a pact to do it with some friends at the end of next year, I may need to use it to get in any unclear grammar points and to cram before the test. Hopefully I won’t need it but if I do then I will be back. I was toying with doing the N1 in the summer (in which case I would have stuck with Bunpro) but the prospect of studying specifically for a test brings out my annoyingly defiant 15 year old self (“I don’t want to study and you can’t make me!”). Also I still use Bunpro as a reference or place to search for grammar I see in the wild. Unfortunately this is less and less the case as many things I search for now aren’t on Bunpro but it is still something I check nine times out of ten when doing lookups.

Final review of Bunpro

8/10 - Excellent. I would highly recommend Bunpro to someone who is around the level of having just finished Genki 1 or read through Tae Kim a few times. It is a great way to get you to engage with the grammar you are seeing in media/real life and it has been essential in making sure that grammar is one part of Japanese I have never had to worry about too much. I would also recommend it to anyone who needs to study up before a specific JLPT level as it is very comprehensive and will make sure you get enough exposure to your weak points.

Thank you to the Bunpro team and to everyone who has helped me on this forum.

P.S.

I enjoy talking about grammar on this forum so I don’t plan to stop participating in grammar related discussions here. I am not sure I will be super active as my goals for next year are slightly antithetical to using an English-language forum. Besides, I have slowly found myself going from someone who didn’t know the answer to the questions posted here to becoming someone who knows the answers and thus I find myself learning less and less here as time goes on. Still, I’ll be on the watch for those juicy impossible nuance questions! Also any “Fluent in 4 months” posts
I love those ones 笑

Happy studying everyone!

(I didn’t proof read this so please forgive me for any glaring typos etc)

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Awesome review! Glad to hear your thoughts about everything you do and have been doing along your learning journey!

As I am one of the people personally responsible for the content side, feel free to swing me a PM at any stage about any of that 10% of explanations you think could use some improvement and, if possible, why. Only if you have some spare time of course :blush:.

Also open to any other ideas that you may have! If you log back in anytime soon, I hope that you will be logging back into some pleasant surprises about things that will be fixed in the very near future!

Unrelated - Didn’t know you were in Japan! Still here? If you’re ever in Osaka hit me up for a catch-up :muscle:

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I personally like the vocab decks and I hope they add more of them. I find it better than Anki and it’s one of its biggest selling points for me.

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Well, this is sad news :cry: . I regard you as one of the most knowledgeable people in this forum, who I have learnt from, so not having you here anymore feels like a loss. Hopefully next year BunPro will add more content that will inevitably reel you back in :blush:.

That said, I do understand your situation. One thing I feel this forum needs is a Japanese only section for the more advanced learners. Not only would it serve as another outlet to practice Japanese, but I think it will also keep people who love grammar engaged. We have a good community here, but that’s one thing that’s sorely missing. After all, Japanese is what we came here to learn, no?

Anyway, it’s been a pleasure interacting with you (at least the few times that’s been the case), and I wish you the best in your journey moving forward. Hope to see you around sometime though.

Best of luck!!

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Congrats on the 卒業! I hope you have a great time reading Japanese!

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Thank you for the kind replies, everyone.

@Asher I’ll try and take some time to think more seriously about feedback and make some notes on any lessons I come across that maybe I think could be changed and then will send it all as one large chunk of feedback. Can’t promise it will be soon but definitely something I’ll keep on the back burner. Overall you have done a great job, genuinely, and knowing that it is a work in progress does give me confidence that in a few years things will be even better. I create a lot of my own materials at work for teaching English and I know how much more tricky it can be than people may think to create very high quality stuff that is level appropriate and that people can actually engage with and learn from. And I am still in Japan with no plans to leave! I’ll hit you up some time when I’m free.

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Second this!

Also, I know it would be a whole lot of extra work and not everyone would use it, but having the option to view N2/N1 grammar explanations in Japanese would be nice. I find myself going to Japanese sources now for explanations, so it would probably make me use Bunpro more if it was an option.

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Nice review and good luck with what’s next for you!

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Sorry for reviving this thread, but out of curiosity, did you end up taking the N1 with your friends? And if so, do you feel like using Bunpro to study for it was a good use of time as opposed to general immersion/other resources?

I know you mentioned in this that you quit at about the half-way mark going through N1 grammar, but wondering if you ended up picking it up again or if you chose to use something else.

(I’m hoping to take the N1 this year, but feel like I’m struggling to balance immersion for personal enjoyment vs having to do dedicated JLPT prep and grinding through grammar reviews. Only so many hours in the day!).

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I did! I passed and also managed to get 60/60 on the reading section.

For pure test practice nothing is better than past papers.

The Shinkanzen Master series is probably the best series for reviewing (for the test) however they’re not really suited for learning the material the first time. I dipped into the grammar book although didn’t finish it and I quite liked it however I was at the very least familiar with all the material in the book beforehand.

I went through all the Bunpro N1 material in the end, over the course of a couple of months before the test. I was mostly just trying to make sure everything was fresh in my head. For general Japanese grammar, Bunpro is comfortably better than most other resources. One massive advantage is the sentences used for reviews. The sentences do a very good job and priming you for the contexts that the grammar point is usually used in although this is hard to notice until you are looking back with decent comprehension. N1 now has Japanese explanations for grammar points which is pretty cool. I definitely would have used those!

When I started studying for the N1 I already could easily pass practice tests so it is tricky for me to give advice for how to study for the test specifically from a lower level (maybe you are already solidly N1 though?) however I would probably suggest going through everything on Bunpro first (and then reviewing via the SRS) just to get familiar. Google or the other resources tab is enough to support your understanding when the Bunpro explanation isn’t clicking. After it has soaked in for a month or two I would then start the Shinkanzen Master book to review and periodically do past papers.

Not a necessity but there was also a drill book I used which had a bunch of short grammar/kanji/vocab questions in. You can blast through one of those in about 5 hours. I could then see what grammar I wasn’t actually comfortable with.

I did vocab SRS for about a month but quit as I didn’t like studying the words out of context. I don’t really do vocab SRS in general these days anyway. I did no kanji study for the test as I seem to have no issue learning kanji just through reading and already felt comfortable enough with kanji.

One other practical tip: I took the N2 in the exam session six months before the N1 just to get a sense of how the test day felt. It wasn’t necessary but it helped me get a feeling for how the day goes and just confirmed that I was definitely ready for the N1 and gave me an idea of how I might want to approach it.

If there is no pressing need for the JLPT then I’d always suggest doing what is fun or interesting!

Being a confident reader/listener is the main thing and anything else should be in support of that. Going through the grammar etc can help you notice it in the wild though, which does help build a better language sense. There is a strong argument to be had for studying rarer grammar/vocab/kanji explicitly as it is hard to rely on natural spacing to acquire it in a reasonable amount of time. At the end of the day it is a personal call and doing something is always better than doing nothing :man_shrugging: I also think it is fine to change it up as your mood changes. I am not an especially disciplined person (my longest SRS streak across 3ish years is around 60 days :sweat_smile:) so being an efficiency machine isn’t a prerequisite either.

I feel now there is probably even more for me to work on than before and N1 definitely is the end of the beginning (and not the beginning of the end) so if possible I’d recommend thinking about your longer term trajectory far beyond the N1 and the N1 as just a single plot point along that line. I am sure you know what works for you yourself well enough by now though so just don’t quit and you’ll get there in no time, I am certain!

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Just curious, have you had a chance to read some of those, and if yes, how do they compare to explanations of Japanese grammar for native Japanese students in e.g. school?

I don’t want to criticize hard work of the team, but to me they read like translations of English-language explanations into Japanese, if that makes any sense.

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Makes sense, don’t worry. I believe the Japanese explanations are translations of the English explanations (which makes sense to me as it allows people to read both together).

Japanese students don’t need explanations for the kind of things in N1 so it’s hard to compare. Definitely the explanations read like they’re intended for foreign learners, although that isn’t necessarily a bad thing since that’s what we are :sweat_smile:. If you Google some N1 grammar points or some questions about some grammar points in Japanese then overwhelmingly you’ll only get results aimed at foreigners since in the vast majority of cases there is no need for a native to search for these things as they’re obvious. Occasionally I do stumble across a question of nuance or usage which is a matter of debate amongst natives though.

I can understand if the translations are maybe not your style though. I think they’d probably be useful just to help associate the grammar point with what you already know as generally N1 is just variations of stuff you’ve seen before. This helps avoid “synonym hell” (although that feeling disappeared for me around N2) which is likely caused by having the same English translation of multiple different Japanese words/concepts. Some concepts are probably easier in Japanese and some are probably easier in English so it likely comes down to personal preference.

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I’ve been trying to remember my native language lessons to get a base of comparison. That was a very long time ago, but I’m getting the same feeling. The kind of expressions that are in N1 were not treated as “grammar” proper, you’d either run into them in the literature class, or pick up naturally later.

On one hand, explanations like “をいいことに is a combination of を, the い-Adjective 良い ‘good’, the noun こと ‘thing’, and the particle に” feel redundant. This information could be packed into the “structure” side block, but when it is also translated into Japanese, I’m not sure how I feel about that.

On the other hand, foreign learners need something, so what would be a better explanation. Maybe just “it means this, it could be used in this situation, and it sounds stuffy/angry etc”. I’m not a teacher so I wouldn’t know what is effective.

It does make sense to compare, but also maybe an explanation written from scratch would flow more naturally. “Imagine your 12-year-old heard it for the first time and you are explaining what this means”.

In any case, thank you for your perspective.

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Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to respond!

I feel now there is probably even more for me to work on than before and N1 definitely is the end of the beginning (and not the beginning of the end)

I definitely agree with this sentiment! So much of what is actually useful for daily life in Japan, conversation, engaging in hobbies, etc. isn’t really covered by JLPT.

For me personally, I’m hoping to pass N1 for visa purposes (increased points for Highly Skilled Visa/PR), so unfortunately going to be focusing on that for the next little while, so I appreciate hearing what worked and didn’t work for you when studying for it. I often tell other learners that language learning is a marathon, not a sprint, so being a bit of a hypocrite and ignoring my own advice, but what can you do :woman_shrugging:t2:

Once that’s out of the way though I’m looking forward to being able to just focus on learning what I feel is interesting or useful!

Thanks again for your perspective!

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