Should I have more active knowledge of kanji compounds?

Japanese
#1

This is a bit of an odd question, but I noticed that I am extremely bad at one specific skill regarding kanji compounds. And I’m wondering if that is an issue. And I am also wondering how common this issue is.

Let’s take as an example the compound 警察.

The following I can do, no problem:

  • When I see this compound written somewhere (in particular in context), I know immediately that it means “police”.
  • I can also read it out loud as けいさつ.
  • If I want to talk about the police, I know to say けいさつ.
  • If I want to write about the police on a computer or smartphone, I would type けいさつ, then recognize 警察 in the list and pick it, done.
  • If someone gave me a pen and asked me “write the kanji with the rough meaning ‘admonish’ and ‘guess’”, I could write them, including the correct stroke order.

But here is the one thing I cannot do: If someone gave me a pen and asked me “write the compound for police”, it would be an almost impossible task to me, because I can’t produce “the magic combination”.

I have this issue mostly for “more obscure” compounds (like 宿題, 掃除, 帽子, 封筒) where one of the two kanji seems natural, but the other one seems almost arbitrary. “Obvious/natural” compounds are totally fine (e.g. 大学, 映画, 灰皿).

Okay so why am I writing all this? Basically I am wondering if I should be concerned about this one gap in my knowledge. Basically, my brain has these channels:

  1. meaning → pronunciation/kana: fine
  2. pronunciation/kana → meaning: fine
  3. compound → meaning: fine
  4. meaning → compound: NOPE

The reason why I am so bad at (4) is that it is a skill that I do not need in any of my activities: talking, listening, reading, or writing on a computer.

To clarify: Being able to write japanese by hand (in particular more complex stuff that goes beyond a quick note) is not a “skill goal” of mine. It ranks very low in my priorities, close to zero in fact.

But I am wondering if there is a more general reason about japanese learning due to which I should try to learn these compounds more.

Any thoughts?

3 Likes
#2

Kanji in words like 群馬、挨拶、曖昧、躊躇、嫉妬. 10 Kanji you’ll probably end up learning that get used in basically one common word… and the above is it!

True for single kanji words too like 兜、杖、斧、鎧 - hello video games!

Some pairs have a single kanji that’s only commonly used in that word. Examples include the 誌 in 雑誌. Or in place names / names the 菅 in 菅原 or the 輔 in 大輔.

There’s almost no reason early on (or even middle on?) to learn what the kanji mean in isolation early on. Depending on your learning tool, in can be hard to identify these. Here’s how I’d do it in bunpro.

The first results on bunpro for 輔 shows this.

firefox_u2ejU5OZfz
firefox_u2ejU5OZfz3636×625 124 KB

助ける、補助 show up because 輔 might be uncommonly used in those words, and the first time it’s shown is “unclassified”. If it’s not in the JLPT Decks (N5 to N1) or the “A” decks (A1 to A20), it’s probably best to just isolate it as a kanji you learn as part of a word, not by itself.

Here’s 挨拶 just to show another example.

firefox_IWpicO2t9d
firefox_IWpicO2t9d3626×631 124 KB

Just one word. Probably not worth using.

Here’s Renshuu.org’s lookup just to show another tool that has word lookup by Kanji.

firefox_bJXFtzKyMX
firefox_bJXFtzKyMX1391×838 86.3 KB

And surprise! Every single one is just 挨拶, and the 4th one is an archaism!

2 Likes
#3

Outside of some research showing that writing helps with memorization, outside of some key kanji you really probably dont need to write it out and know the meaning of them. That is one of those skills that unless you are looking to be fluent in all 4 skills (Reading, Writing, Speaking Listening) its not needed. Knowing the compounds probably help when coming across unknown Kanji but even then it sounds like for obvious compounds its easy for you to read. I wouldnt worry about it to much since itll mostly likely never come up, and only worry if you get into like Calligraphy and wanna make beautiful handwriting or something.

#4

You’re fine. Just learn for your goals.

of your bullet points, I can’t do the last one.

To me its yeah, that kanji means ‘police’ the top part is the kei in 敬語 with 言う on the bottom, and 祭 with a hat. I think my kanji deck called it ‘judge’?

When I was learning Kanji I memorized the English names of the compounds, but they fade away over the years. (I studied Kanji from 2020-2022)

I just tried to hand write a review. I could draw 今朝, 凄いbut not 地震。 I barely got 会社. I wasn’t sure whether its ネ土 or 土ネ. I’m fine with this, because I’m at peace with my writing level.

Yeah, just keep learning vocab. at level 34, you maybe can try reading your first manga? If your kanji is good enough for your goals thats all that matters.

#5

Yeah sounds like you are learning kanji too isolated. Learn to write the words, more than the kanji.
Would be like writing “A” 50 times instead of writing out things like “Apple, Antarctica, Africa, Alfredo, Tactician” try changing it up and look for the actual words instead of kanji.

#6

I want to point out, that ironically, this is the exactly how elementary students in the US learn letters. Kids start off writing each letter many times, before they start moving to words. Not to say there’s anything wrong with your advice, but I think both methods are a valid approach.

1 Like
#7

But here is the one thing I cannot do: If someone gave me a pen and asked me “write the compound for police”, it would be an almost impossible task to me, because I can’t produce “the magic combination”.

How often will you be expected to do this? That is what would decide ‘concern’ level, to me.

I have writing in Japanese by hand as a goal, because I enjoy journaling and writing as a craft, and when it comes to remembering how to write kanji compounds it’s very much tied up in learning and remembering the pronunciation with the kanji, which itself is tied up with vocabularly. (At least for me.) Writing in Japanese is basically at the bottom of my goals, though, so I don’t practice as much as I would like. Even so, I don’t worry much about being able to produce the magic combination… If I know the word, know how it is used, and am able to type it on a computer or phone and choose the correct kanji, then that is the majority of the work done.

#8

To clarify: Being able to write japanese by hand (in particular more complex stuff that goes beyond a quick note) is not a “skill goal” of mine. It ranks very low in my priorities, close to zero in fact.

But I am wondering if there is a more general reason about japanese learning due to which I should try to learn these compounds more.

I’d say no, if you don’t care about being able to write, then there’s no reason to worry about being able to recall the kanji that are in specific compounds. If you wanted to eventually take Kanken or handwrite letters or something, you’d need to, but other than that, I don’t think practicing that would have any meaningful effect on the areas of Japanese that you actually care about.

#9

I think being able to at least break them down into their radical parts when you look at them swiftly is good enough. Personally i spent some extra time learning additional radical/kanji meanings that are at least used in more compound kanjis. Though as mentioned before by people, that skill vanishes over time when you dont replenish it.

  1. 警 is 敬 (Respect) & 言 (Say),

  2. 敬 (Respect) is 苟 (Poem) & 夂 (Winter),

  3. 苟 (Poem) is 句 (Paragraph) & 艹 (Flowers)

  4. 察 is 祭 (Festival) & 宀 (Roof)

  5. 祭 (Festival) is 月 (Moon), 又 (Stool) & 示 (Jackhammer)

I tried to write it and mixed up 句 (Paragraph) with 勺 (Pool). So be it.
Remember, i took a quick 1 second look first.

#10

Thank you everyone for your comments! Reading through them I get the impression that I seem to be worrying a bit too much about a certain detail.

As several of you said, in the end my skills need to “only” match my goals, and based on that things don’t seem to be too bad.

I think the reason why this specific “gap” of mine concerned me so much was that it is something that is unique to learning Japanese when comparing it to learning a European language (the only other kind of languages I ever looked at to learn). For those languages, if you know how to say a word, you do (more or less) know how to write it.

I will add this to my list of “reasons why Kanji both fascinate and frustrate me” :sweat_smile:

1 Like