Should we really follow N levels?

Bunpro
#1

When I think of basics of any language I think things like “can” or “if”. They are really basic stuff so after getting almost end of N5 I started wondering why I haven’t got those lessons yet. Then I searched them and it seems they are both in N4. I couldn’t find “can’t” but there is a lesson about “unable to” in N2. Meanwhile N5 has lessons like “to become” which I think is far less common.

I feel like you use “if” much more than “to become” in any language so I wonder, should I go and learn stuff even it’s in N3 for example when I’m still on N5? Or is there a logic behind this? Maybe “can” or “if” is hard and “unable to” is even harder that’s why we need to mostly follow N levels?

Sometimes I try to form simple sentences but I have missing knowledge, should I go learn them when I want or maybe I really should follow N levels? What do you guys do/think?

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#2

I think sticking to a path is important in the beginning (Either Bunpro path, or some other book path), afterwards not so much.

I do think that the N levels don’t make much sense though, specially kanji wise.

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#3

What do you mean by “the beginning” though, I simply look at lessons and do the ones I think are important.

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#4

I’d go by N level and as you’re reading/listening more, add the things you see in the wild. I think you can do N5 and follow the path but if there’s certain things you really wanna know, just add it to your reviews. N5 and 4 have a TON of super important fundamentals, so you can basically bounce around since 95%+ are things you will see and use in your daily life.

I think with N3, you can sort of bounce around to a certain degree, and with N2 especially you can bounce around wherever you want. Don’t have any experience with N1 stuff so can’t give feedback on that.

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#5

This is one of the downsides to using the JLPT as a general purpose learning tool–it’s not designed to be. The purpose of the JLPT is to test foreigners’ comptence in language they are most likely to encounter in professional or academic settings. It’s one of the things used by the Japanese government for assessing whether foreign nationals should be granted work visas, for example.

You might even say that, to some extent, the government doesn’t want the JLPT to be used as a learning tool because that will make the test easier to study for and easier to pass, which could artificially inflate the admission rate of foreign nationals. Althougn, in practice this is not too much of a concern, especially at the higher levels (N2+) because you really do need to know the language to have any chance of passing. Also, it appears the administering body seems to like keep the pass rate around (or even below) the 50% range. It seems they change things up occasionally to maintain that.

If your purpose for learning Japanese is something else (e.g. video games, anime, manga), then studying according to the JLPT will expose you to things you’d rarely see in those media.

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#6

I guess that makes sense. Sometimes I feel like “how can’t I form even this simple of a sentence”, maybe I should simply go and learn them, if they are not that advanced of course. Like, I can’t even say “I can’t speak Japanese” but I know what “demoii” means, that’s kind of weird to me.

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#7

I’m following the Genki path, that roughly corresponds to N5-N4 anyway. I did this, as I was reading 魔女の宅急便, but then had the issue that the grammar I looked up was N2, a verb form I needed to know to form it was N3 and that was based on something in N4. So I kind of gave up on doing this, because it was just confusing me even more. I made a mental note that that form roughly means X and trying to stick it out with that knowledge until I reach around N3. I think once you get to N3 you are able to jump around a bit more.

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#8

Yeah, I won’t be getting JLPT test at all, I will mix things up from now on.

And of course, Japanese government never ceases to surprise.

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#9

Yeah the thing with essentials is that you’re always going to have to learn things in different orders, similar to vocab in a way. Also for your example sentence, that involves surprisingly ‘complicated’ stuff which is why it’s held off a bit haha. Sounds like you’re on the right path though! Honestly if you stick to the path, especially N5, you’ll be making some good, albeit simple, sentences really soon.

Best of luck!

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#10

Beginning for me is the basics, but even that is subjective. I think it would be good enough when you feel comfortable jumping around grammar points?. You should have a hold of the “basics” you will see within the more advanced grammar points.

Sorry, I know I’m explaining myself like trash here, but it’s hard to convey what I think about this.

This is a pretty much good summary of how I feel.
JLPT levels and having an useful level of the language is very different, specially anything JLPT N3 or below.

This is also part of the reason of why I moved my Kanji learning to Japanese School Grade order.

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#11

One thing is clear, people don’t think there is a certain “correct way”. That was the main point of my question, if you don’t need to follow N levels religiously, I won’t do it. Of course that doesn’t mean I will just go and start N3 or something, I will still follow it but I will also mix some lessons I think that are important.

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#12

The only thing that might be annoying if you jump around is the sentences may things that were taught in previous lessons like conjugation, etc. This isn’t too big of a problem outside of N5, and there’s really only a few times this happens really, but just an FYI. If you find this to be the case, you can use it as an excuse to go learn two things at once.

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#13

The real convenience of the N# tests is not that they’re the best order to learn, it’s that they have enormous amounts of content to support them.

For better or worse, most people end up learning along the lines of the N5 when they start and thus when people start making teaching content they start following the N levels because that’s where most of the learners are and so the feedback loop constantly compounds.

However, this is also an advantage of the N levels. You can find tons of YouTube channels, podcasts, books, flashcards, grammar, etc that follow the N levels so you have many options to choose from that best fit what you’re looking for. This also ensures that there is enough content to reenforce what you’ve been learning.

The other, less objective, advantage is that the tests provide goalposts to orient learning. Sometimes thinking about all the things you have to learn just to have a basic conversation is overwhelming so having clear, manageable, progressive goals provides feedback about your progress which I think is very important to maintaining motivation. Especially at beginner to lower intermediate levels of learning.

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#14

I think that the N system is ok but any person serious with learning the language will naturally find their own particular path to studying and will use it a guide but not gospel.

Things like frequency lists, kanji learning strategies, etc.

As far as your particular question conquering conditionals. The thing is Japanese does not use an explicit word for conditionals like English does (with the exception of もし but even then it is more a marker than the actual conditional itself). Rather it is baked into the verbs most of the time. There are also four different kinds of conditionals that cover different semantic ranges for conditionals that we take for granted in English.

  • たら
  • と
  • ば・れば
  • なら

With not have learned cannot in the N5 level you should be able to deduce that from the potential and negative rules for verbs.
泳ぐ→泳げる→泳げない
Though You are right that somple expclit practice would help early on.

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#15

There are two “can’t” at N4/N5 levels that I know of, depending on what you mean:

I assume that N2 grammar you found is in N2 because it is much more seldomly used (and/or harder or has more nuance) than e.g. N4 and N5 level stuff.

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#16

I haven’t read the whole thread so this might have already been said, but when I was starting I found the same problem. “If” seems like it should be taught really early but wasn’t. What I would recommend (and what I do), is when you want to say something in Japanese but don’t know how to or need to use a workaround, take note of that. Then, when you’re learning a new batch of grammar, throw some of those later level grammar points that will be immediately useful in along with whatever “path” you are following.

#17

Bear in mind that grammar combines. When you know how to negate a verb (early N5) and say “be able to” (early N4), you know “can’t”.

You’re confusing basics with commonality. Sentences that join multiple clauses are more advanced than those that do not; “if” joins clauses. We don’t often speak in simple “X is Y”, “A does B” sentences because we use our native languages in an advanced way, but picture books for children do use that sort of language, because you’ve got to know how to say them first before you can say “if A does B, then X is Y”.

Of course, the JLPT order won’t be perfect and you don’t need to stick to it, and I imagine there’s no harm in a bit of jumping around, but do bear in mind that the order from basic to advanced might not be obvious to those of us without experience teaching languages.

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#18

Thanks for all the answers. It’s a fresh air after asking some questions on “Learn Japanese” on reddit.

I will mostly follow N levels but I will be more flexible from now on.

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#19

That’s what I like about this site. They give you a recommendation but you can still pick and choose whatever next grammar point you want at any time. There is no punishment for curiosity or restriction on choice

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#20

I’d definitely follow the BunPro order as the site will gradually introduce new grammar in the example sentences. If you jump about too much you may find the example sentences less useful and containing grammar you have not learnt yet.

Honestly, all of N5-N4 is ‘the basics’ and it shouldn’t take too long to work through them both. N3 is when sentences get more interesting but you need a solid foundation first.

P.S. the ‘can’ you have already learned is more like asking for permission rather than having an ability to do something. I think what you’re after is ‘potential form’ and comes right at the start of N4. You simply negate the potential form to say what you can’t do.

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