Yeah the thing with essentials is that you’re always going to have to learn things in different orders, similar to vocab in a way. Also for your example sentence, that involves surprisingly ‘complicated’ stuff which is why it’s held off a bit haha. Sounds like you’re on the right path though! Honestly if you stick to the path, especially N5, you’ll be making some good, albeit simple, sentences really soon.
Best of luck!
Beginning for me is the basics, but even that is subjective. I think it would be good enough when you feel comfortable jumping around grammar points?. You should have a hold of the “basics” you will see within the more advanced grammar points.
Sorry, I know I’m explaining myself like trash here, but it’s hard to convey what I think about this.
This is a pretty much good summary of how I feel.
JLPT levels and having an useful level of the language is very different, specially anything JLPT N3 or below.
This is also part of the reason of why I moved my Kanji learning to Japanese School Grade order.
One thing is clear, people don’t think there is a certain “correct way”. That was the main point of my question, if you don’t need to follow N levels religiously, I won’t do it. Of course that doesn’t mean I will just go and start N3 or something, I will still follow it but I will also mix some lessons I think that are important.
The only thing that might be annoying if you jump around is the sentences may things that were taught in previous lessons like conjugation, etc. This isn’t too big of a problem outside of N5, and there’s really only a few times this happens really, but just an FYI. If you find this to be the case, you can use it as an excuse to go learn two things at once.
The real convenience of the N# tests is not that they’re the best order to learn, it’s that they have enormous amounts of content to support them.
For better or worse, most people end up learning along the lines of the N5 when they start and thus when people start making teaching content they start following the N levels because that’s where most of the learners are and so the feedback loop constantly compounds.
However, this is also an advantage of the N levels. You can find tons of YouTube channels, podcasts, books, flashcards, grammar, etc that follow the N levels so you have many options to choose from that best fit what you’re looking for. This also ensures that there is enough content to reenforce what you’ve been learning.
The other, less objective, advantage is that the tests provide goalposts to orient learning. Sometimes thinking about all the things you have to learn just to have a basic conversation is overwhelming so having clear, manageable, progressive goals provides feedback about your progress which I think is very important to maintaining motivation. Especially at beginner to lower intermediate levels of learning.
I think that the N system is ok but any person serious with learning the language will naturally find their own particular path to studying and will use it a guide but not gospel.
Things like frequency lists, kanji learning strategies, etc.
As far as your particular question conquering conditionals. The thing is Japanese does not use an explicit word for conditionals like English does (with the exception of もし but even then it is more a marker than the actual conditional itself). Rather it is baked into the verbs most of the time. There are also four different kinds of conditionals that cover different semantic ranges for conditionals that we take for granted in English.
With not have learned cannot in the N5 level you should be able to deduce that from the potential and negative rules for verbs.
泳ぐ→泳げる→泳げない
Though You are right that somple expclit practice would help early on.
There are two “can’t” at N4/N5 levels that I know of, depending on what you mean:
I assume that N2 grammar you found is in N2 because it is much more seldomly used (and/or harder or has more nuance) than e.g. N4 and N5 level stuff.
I haven’t read the whole thread so this might have already been said, but when I was starting I found the same problem. “If” seems like it should be taught really early but wasn’t. What I would recommend (and what I do), is when you want to say something in Japanese but don’t know how to or need to use a workaround, take note of that. Then, when you’re learning a new batch of grammar, throw some of those later level grammar points that will be immediately useful in along with whatever “path” you are following.
Bear in mind that grammar combines. When you know how to negate a verb (early N5) and say “be able to” (early N4), you know “can’t”.
You’re confusing basics with commonality. Sentences that join multiple clauses are more advanced than those that do not; “if” joins clauses. We don’t often speak in simple “X is Y”, “A does B” sentences because we use our native languages in an advanced way, but picture books for children do use that sort of language, because you’ve got to know how to say them first before you can say “if A does B, then X is Y”.
Of course, the JLPT order won’t be perfect and you don’t need to stick to it, and I imagine there’s no harm in a bit of jumping around, but do bear in mind that the order from basic to advanced might not be obvious to those of us without experience teaching languages.
Thanks for all the answers. It’s a fresh air after asking some questions on “Learn Japanese” on reddit.
I will mostly follow N levels but I will be more flexible from now on.
That’s what I like about this site. They give you a recommendation but you can still pick and choose whatever next grammar point you want at any time. There is no punishment for curiosity or restriction on choice
I’d definitely follow the BunPro order as the site will gradually introduce new grammar in the example sentences. If you jump about too much you may find the example sentences less useful and containing grammar you have not learnt yet.
Honestly, all of N5-N4 is ‘the basics’ and it shouldn’t take too long to work through them both. N3 is when sentences get more interesting but you need a solid foundation first.
P.S. the ‘can’ you have already learned is more like asking for permission rather than having an ability to do something. I think what you’re after is ‘potential form’ and comes right at the start of N4. You simply negate the potential form to say what you can’t do.
Whisper it but I’ve added some N3 grammar points I’ve encountered in my reading even though I’ve not completed N4… Ssshh Asher is listening… everywhere…
There aren’t really any strict rules, just keep in mind that a lot of the grammar builds on each other. So I recommend having a solid foundation (N5/N4) before you jump around too much.
For example, to learn the grammar point たらいい (N3), you should learn たら (N4) first and for this you should know た form (N5) already.
You will find that regardless of what study path you take, N3 ish standard is where you will find the meat of Japanese grammar, the stuff you use everyday. The grammar you have searched for in N2 and such are more than likely formal, alternative or fancy ways of saying things you will already know by the intermediate stage. They are useful when watching the news, working in an office or company or reading an article, not so much everyday conversation.
Also, try to think of things in a Japanese sense. For example ‘To become’ may not seem important (although we use it constantly in English ~ I want to be a ~~ or It will be ~~) it is actually a vital Japanese grammar, mostly because its used within other, more complicated grammar. But also because Japanese people use it very frequently, its meaning has a wider range than its English translation.
Overall, the JLPT has no speaking section, and so its a pretty bad way to measure fluency. I’ve met N1 people who have the worst accent and spoken Japanese (this was confirmed by the Japanese people around them). But, if you want to build the basics of grammar and sentence construction, following the JLPT is a relatively good way of tracking progress imo
I will second this. I believe that if you were to live in Japan with a very solid hold of N5, 4, and 3 (including being able to output it without prompting), you would be very fluent. Though, generally I would say that focusing on N levels for studying order might be best for people looking for a certification that will help them for entrance into school or for job hunting. Using textbooks may start you out in the N5, N4 range, but you will definitely also encounter some N3, N2 stuff along the way, even before you are ready for N2. But that’s only natural.
I think following a study plan that is more comprehensive (fostering the four disciplines of writing, reading, listening, and speaking) will make you the most well-rounded in Japanese (writing may be not as prevalent due to the increase of typing - though it does help cement knowledge and tell the difference between similar kanji, and learn stroke order for some Japanese dictionaries). And as iterated multiple times throughout multiple posts on the Bunpro community, Bunpro is probably best used as a supporting member of your study-buddy-action-plan, and not your main source of language learning.
I have also met people who have passed N1 and can’t speak Japanese, though this may matter less to people who are only hoping for passive-proficiency (listening and reading based), and do not necessarily need/want to be actively proficient (writing, speaking).
I have also met people who have passed N1 and can’t speak Japanese, though this may matter less to people who are only hoping for passive-proficiency (listening and reading based), and do not necessarily need/want to be actively proficient (writing, speaking).
In fact, that describes me. Although I might one day visit Japan, I have no intention of residing there for any time, nor do I suspect I would ever work with Japanese speakers. The vast majority of Japanese I encounter is written, so that’s been the main focus of my studies. And while Bunpro might still have things I’ll probably rarely or never encounter (～ざるを得ない comes to mind), it’s still a very useful resource. And now that we have vocab decks, that’s only truer still (although I need to try and find a way to sync up my Anki deck and Bunpro…).
Seconding this. It’s difficult to judge which grammar points are important in a language you don’t know yet, so following an order set up by people who do know the language is a good idea. Trust them, they’re probably not horribly wrong on what’s useful/basic.
Ofc depending on what your goals are there might be some things that are a more or less useful, or things you encounter a lot that are missing, but 90 something % of beginner levels (be that JLPT or a textbook) will be useful, regardless of what you’ll use it for.
I use bunpro mostly so I have a path to follow to study since there is so much grammar out there and I would never know what to start with (which is actually why my first attempt to learn japanese fizzled out once I passed basic basic grammar and kana). Since I am subscribed to quite a few japanese channels for learning japanese, I’ll often watch videos that aren’t exactly on my level (N5 so I have watched some N4 and N3). Don’t worry about following N levels too much, try to learn what is more related to your situation and that you want to learn.
I would just learn them in order, because “to become” is simpler in Japanese than “if” (imo) and you still use “to become” very often. For example, I know maybe six ways to say “if” in Japanese, or rules that apply to saying “if,” depending on if it’s volitional, non-volitional, giving advice, not giving advice, asking for advice, speaking formally, etc. And these forms all expand on concepts you learn in earlier levels. Whereas you’d only have “if” in English.