So, is the “meat” of the grammar really in N5/N4?

Japanese
#1

Hello! I’ve been using Bunpro for a month and a half now. I’m doing it in the default order, and I’ve now added all of the N5 and very nearly all of the N4 material. I believe I’ve seen it mentioned offhand around here that N5 and N4 were the hardest to learn, because N3 onward largely consist of nuances and variations on the fundamentals that were taught in these earlier levels.

For those of you who have gone through most or all of the Bunpro material, has this indeed been your experience?

I doubt this will greatly impact how I study on here, I’m really just curious. :slight_smile:

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#2

Yes I think for the most part you are on the money here. The later N levels are more nuance driven, like you would expect for most languages; the fundamentals of the language are covered in the lower levels and the more sophisticated parts are in the higher levels.

However, I found/find the higher levels more difficult as the difference in subtlety and nuance is far more pronounced here, and being able to read between lines and truly getting the thrust of a sentence is the aim here, whereas the basics of the language are exactly that, basic and straightforward.

Just to highlight, Japanese is very situationally driven, how you speak and the grammar and language you use, is very, very dependant on situation and so the ability to distinguish between nuance is critical here. For this reason I don’t think the higher levels are as easy as they are often said to be

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#3

I’d say that N5/N4 is hard because you have to get used to so many things that work differently from English, or that English grammar rules don’t adequately explain. But, as your title suggests, you can function really well in Japan and with Japanese people with just N5/N4 level. I know I did — for years! (Of course, I wasn’t working or living full time in Japan - just a couple visits and talking with Japanese in America)

But as @ljoekelsoey said, N3/N2 gets hard because there’s so many grammar points that have similar meaning or similar construction that it gets confusing real quick. Also, there’s more written/formal grammar that you just don’t come across often in casual spoken Japanese.

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#4

I think it’s definitely another case of the 80-20 rule. The N5/N4 stuff is definitely the most important however, I find even now with the mid N3 stuff that everytime I learn a new grammar point I suddenly start finding it everywhere.

So while N5/N4 alone are enough to get your way through a conversation there is still plenty of completely brand new things in N3 and beyond that once you learn you’ll be like “huh. how did I not realize I didn’t know how to say that?”

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#5

All the replies are great, N5/N4 (with sufficient vocab) will definitely get you through most of the daily conversations and anime/manga materials, so N5/N4 grammar points are definitely essential to learn separately by itself.
But I just want to add some practical advice, for the higher levels above N3, you shouldn’t spend too much time grinding just grammar points, once you have N5/N4 and a little bit of N3 under your belt, immersion becomes the key.
So it would be much more efficient to look up the more difficult grammar points on the fly as you encounter them via reading/watching anime or videos.

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#6

As someone who is halfway through N4 this is really interesting to read.

Thanks for all the replies!

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#7

N5 and N4 have a lot of fundamental grammar points eg てform which is used to build up other grammar points at later levels eg ~てしまう, ~ていては.

Part of N3 is kinda fundamental too… as on the JLPT N3 tests at least, they test a bit of keigo (formal Japanese speech). Towards N3, a lot of reading content becomes really accessible. eg Simple Books, Light Novels.

Like @ljoekelsoey and @FredKore said, I too lightly find N2/N1 a bit difficult as it gets very nuanced and one can say the same thing different ways which gets confusing a bit… It definitely takes me more time to “learn” N2/N1 grammar points. At this point, reading / listening / speaking / watching become important to get exposed to variety of Japanese language usage eg Light Novels, News, Articles , Books and Movies.

Some N2 /N1 are really “popular” in light novels too… However not knowing them did not distract me too much from understanding things… Some N2/N1 grammar points are really easy to grasp. Its just that I personally don’t see them used that much which makes them hard to remember hehe

Also it really depends what content you are consuming and the author’s voice (way of writing / speaking)…

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#8

Yes! :+1:

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#9

Thanks for all the great replies, I really appreciate it! This basically confirms what I had gleaned, but it’s interesting to hear more detailed perspectives.

I am indeed getting to the point where I’m trying to start reading more (especially as I’m now also 3/4 of the way through WaniKani), so I’ll have to see what works best for me on Bunpro as I get into the more specific stuff in the higher levels. If nothing else, I’m probably gonna slow down my pace on here, though.

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#10

This was why I chose to go through N5/4 here even though well familiar, it is so fundamental. Pretty much all of them I’ve found to be conversational useful except for keigo because I don’t have the opportunity. There is a good portion of N3 I find conversational useful as well for what I want to say. N2 is not coming out my mouth at all without a concerted effort to practice it at the moment…but at least I’m coming across in media quite often so nice to hear/read it. Like everyone says, there is the similar meanings and nuances that is an extra challenge. Makes it harder to level up of BP too besides the increased exp point required, ugh

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#11

I pretty much echo everything said on here. I started BP when I was in my fourth year of university and was already N3～N2 level, but did all the N5 and N4 stuff again on here and actually realised that there was some really basic stuff I had been using wrongly for years, case in point まで vs. までに.
The discussion that has happened on this forum before is that N3 tends to focus on daily conversational Japanese and N2 is more focused on reading - if you can pass an N2 exam comfortably, you would probably be able to read a Japanese newspaper pretty comfortably. I occasionally buy a newspaper, but I can never concentrate on it! That’s my big weakness! N1 is similar to N2 in terms of content, but intentionally complicated grammar and vocabulary is included, and of course the speed in which you have to read increases pretty dramatically.
Sorry, I realise I’ve gone off-track slightly there. In summary, yes, if you learn your N5 and N4 stuff by heart, you’ll have a pretty solid foundation for the rest of it.

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#12

…And there we go, I’ve finished N5 and N4 in Bunpro. Guess I’m basically fluent now. :wink:

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#13

Thank you @smearedink for making this post and thank you senpai-tachi for your answers.
I finished N5 and N4 and I’m doing N3 at the moment and I was wondering when should I have a break.
Considering that I’m only wanikani lv 16 I have to look for many words and I’m very slow at reading (but I like it a lot !) so I don’t have many opportunities to encounter all of this grammar that I’m learning.
Reading your answers made me comfortable with having a break after N3 until I reach wanikani 60 next year and become familiar with N5, N4 and N3 grammar encountered “in the wild” through lots of readings.
Thank you :slight_smile:

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#14

I see a lot, if not the majority of learners here using wanikani for their vocab. Does wanikani teach you any vocab that isn’t in kanji? If it doesn’t you are missing out on (very rough guess) 75% of vocab. I thought wanikani was for learning kanji anyway, not vocab?

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#15

Wanikani teaches about 6000 words, so I wouldn’t say it’s only for kanji. But it’s true that these are all written with kanji (it does have some that aren’t usually written with kanji too). Somewhere in the middle it’s probably a good idea to do something about katakana words, onomatopoeia, and a lot of other words that are commonly written in kana. And of course grammar.

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#16

Indeed, it only teaches kanji but it’s invaluable to me.

Before wanikani I studied japanese for about a year and I got very mad because I had as much trouble remembering new vocab after a year of study than in the very beginning.
In my mind, the more I would learn, the easier it should get, but it didn’t.

When i tried out wanikani everything became so much better ! Instead of just remembering whole blocks of lines, their reading and their definition, I have a much keener eye and I’m developing a way to make good mnemonics.

Before, for instance, I had so much trouble differentiating 遠い from 速い ! My clue was the little drop on the lower right part of the kanji, and when I found the drop I forgot if the one with the drop was far or fast ? Ghaaaaa ! Now it’s just so easy the zombie goes far away on his scooter while on my scooter I have to deliver this bundle fast ! (how could I mix up a zombie and a bundle ! what a fool ! ^^)
Before I had to remember this whole package of lines 美術館 was a museum with a reading which was very weird to me. Now i look at it and see ‘beauty-art-public building’, that’s a museum : びじゅつかん.

Plus, when I encounter a new word, I can partially guess its meaning and reading (just as I expected after studying japanese for a year)

Yes, Wanikani doesn’t teach vocab that isn’t kanji, that’s why I add them on my SRS when I encounter them along with the vocab that I encounter which is made from kanji that I already know or kanji which aren’t taught by wanikani.

I still have a long way to go, but I’m very glad that I found this path.

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#17

The vocabulary used in Wanikani is there to re-enforce the memory of the kanji, but also to showcase the different pronunciations of the kanji depending on the word it is used in.

You won’t see any vocabulary that is not using kanji, so it is best to have something else on the side for vocabulary specifically, but there is still quite a significant overlap in between.

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#18

I’m finding that going through Bunpro is actually helping a little bit with some common kana-only vocab. Other than that, yeah, you obviously just have to learn them in whatever way works best for you as you encounter them, or in some kind of premade flashcard deck.

I’ve got enough SRS on my plate for now with WK and BP though.

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#19

Interesting stuff!

Yeh i guess thats sort of my point, learning kanji and learning vocab are pretty seperate, albeit theres a slight overlap, and amalgamating the 2 together seems to cause people a lot of bother and slows them down.

Im thinking specifically about all the vocab around fruit, veg, marine animals, flowers, etc, that have complicated kanji but are very commonly written in kana. If youre learning vocab through kanji, youre going to spend much longer and have a much harder time establishing a good foundational understanding if you are trying to learn words like lemon (檸檬) or rose (薔薇) in kanji rather than kana.

However it definitely seems to be used alongside other systems for vocab which is great.

I didnt touch kanji for the first year of study, but I guess i had a slightly antiquated method of studying :stuck_out_tongue:

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#20

You do learn vocab that is usually seen written in kana, in WaniKani. In fact a bunch of them are also grammar points in BunPro. I quite like that you get to see the versions that have a kanji character in them, just in case you encounter them written that way in the wild.

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