Ive seen this quite a bit lately in reading. As an example, “話し合っての決定.” I didnt see anything for this on bunpro, but maybe im js stupid, i dunno. Has anyone else seen this and knows what it means? Normally I would js ask chatgpt but since i couldnt seem to find this on bunpro I thought it unwise to do so, as i couldnt double check it.
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I haven’t studied it yet myself but I know there is at least ては grammar point here, so maybe that can help connect the understanding of te form + particles ては (JLPT N2) | Bunpro
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This pattern shows that the noun came about through, as a result of, because of, or after the て form verb. So in OP’s example case, a decision that is a result of a discussion is probably it, though you’d need context to know for sure.
Okay, buckle up. You’ve asked a very interesting question.
The base rule is that verbs modify nouns directly. Like ‘食べた寿司’ being ‘the sushi I ate’. So, you’d think that 合って would attach directly to 決定 without the particle の.
However, the て form is an exception to this rule. It can never modify an noun directly. And that’s because, strictly, it’s not a verb. Although we treat it as such through our western lens, the て form is actually the adverbial form of the verb. And adverbs only modify verbs and adjectives, not nouns. So we need the particle の to make it all work.
Clear as mud?
Edit: I appreciate that this is not the ‘standard’ interpretation of the te-form, so feel free to ignore me if it’s not helpful. But this understanding of the te-form was a real ‘ah-ha’ moment for me that made a lot of things (like に就いて) make sense.
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Thanks king
Dont worry, what you are describing is very much the standard way of seeing it. Anyone who claims the て form is a verb is wrong on multiple modern as well as historic levels. This should become obvious once people realize that the て form originated in its use with the 連用形 (modern い stem of verbs). The modern 五段 (Godan) て form of the verb 飲む (飲んで) for example stems from the old 四段 (Yodan) 飲みて. Old 二段 (Nidan) verbs had the え stem as their 連用形. That is why 食べて exists. 食ぶ → 食べ → 食べて. In fact, the て “form” was no form but rather a sort of “particle” that was attached to the 連用形 of a verb, exactly how any particle can be attached to the 連用形 (sometimes called “Noun form”) of a verb, and also functioning very similar to the particle で (which in itself stems from the idea behind “にて,” literally containing て). That is why て functions adverbially; Every classic particle functions adverbially. Therefore, ての falls under the same grammatical category as との, or からの, or any other “Particle+の” construction. The past form is sometimes rumored to stem from an abbreviated form of てある → た (similar to the idea that である abbreviated into だ).
By the way, if anyone cares, the past form た did not exist in classical Japanese. Instead 3 different versions to indicate past were used. One of which is the origin of the て form. The verb “ける” in its 連用形/終止形 (けり) was used after verbs in their 連用形 to indicate a “recollective” past. (けれども is the 已然形 (realis; え stem) form of ける + the old concessive ども (modern でも). The other past form was き (来) to indicate a pure past. Although its not proven, ける in itself is sometimes seen as a combination of this “き+ある.” The most interesting past form is the third though, so the perfective past which had two variants, つ (他動詞 → “transitive”) and ぬ (自動詞 → “intransitive”). Both of which, like all the other classical past forms, where used after the 連用形 of verbs. The ideas of つ “to make something come to a complete end” as opposed to ぬ “to end completely in and of itself” are sometimes seen in modern verbs using つ/ぬ (Most famous is probably 死ぬ). What is interesting though is that the 連用形 (lets call it “continuative form” here) of the perfective つ was て, and this is widely assumed to be the origin of the modern て form: “To continue after something is completed, aka a Sequence”. 飲む (連体形) → 飲み (連用形) → 飲みつ (連用形 + つ) → 飲みて (連用形 + て (連用形 of つ)).
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Are there any good resources you know of that talk more about the history/origins of modern grammatical forms? I find it interesting and also ultimately a bit helpful to know where words like けれども come from.
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alr I kinda understand, thanks for the explanation!
alr thanks for the kinda general rule for this, appreciate it!
Just to disambiguate what you mean by classical japanese in case people are not very familiar with the history of the language, this is specifically the japanese of the 平安 period (circa 800) that formed the basis of the official written language until very close to the present.
By the most common reckoning, た’s usage in spoken Japanese predates Modern Japanese (usually dated at around the 1600s) by hundreds of years. Some scholars place modern japanese much earlier though.
Yeah, coming from a Slavic language as my first language I have always viewed the て form as the adverbial form of the verb because it just translates nicely and makes sense. Ukrainian has ‘transgressives’ (i.e. adverbial participles) that are very similar to but not as powerful as the て form, but in English you’d have to use “and”, “while”, “after” or something like that
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Bunpro actually does cover one specific case of this grammar point, that being あっての (N1).
While this is one of the more common manifestations of ての, it’s not the only one (as many of you have accurately and insightfully pointed out), and because of this we have given some thought to expanding our coverage.
Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to go too in-depth at the moment, but in the meantime we encourage you to look at the above link for some more examples. I’ll be sure to revisit this thread as soon as I can and do my best to provide some additional resources and insights.
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I’m curious why is ての used here, instead of say 話し合った決定 ?
You cannot really “決定を話し合う” if that makes sense.
問題を話し合う・話し合った問題
話し合うことで出来た決定・話し合っての決定
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That’s a nice way to think about it!
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