The Benefits of Resetting an N-Level

A couple months ago, I was close to finishing N2 here on Bunpro. At that point I was doing Bunpro about 30 min a day and adding new grammar every two to three days, sometimes more. I time my reviews and don’t typically add new grammar until reviews are done. Had a bit of a detour and spent a month in Japan late last year. During that whole time, and about two weeks prior I didn’t use Bunpro once which was the longest stint I had ever gone without using it. (About 6 weeks) Over the past couple years I pretty much used it daily with my longest streak being over 600 days. When I finally sat down to do some reviews a couple months ago, my reviews were in the hundreds. I thought, no big deal, I’ll just get through them all and continue where I left off, but it wasn’t as easy as I expected. I realized that while I hadn’t forgotten the grammar per se, I was far from being efficient at it, much less mastering it. So, a decision had to be made.

Resetting both N3 and N2 grammar was not the easiest thing to do. From a purely vain standpoint, watching my level go from mid 80s to mid 60s was, how do I put it? It felt like starting off a game with all your power ups, and then losing them at the beginning of the campaign, only to be left with your basic gear. I had reset individual grammar before, but never a whole level.

The next step was coming to terms as to why I was doing it in the first place. Perhaps the most deceiving thing about specific SRS programs is that they sometimes make you believe that you know more than you think you do. Marking things like vocabulary and grammar as “expert” and “master”. While I understand why it’s done and can be a point of motivation and progress for many, for me personally I often times don’t feel like a master. If that differs for you, I’m not here to tell you that you’re wrong, I’m just letting you know how I feel about it. If I can’t properly use that grammar in a situation without thinking much about it, or easily recognize it out in the wild, I am not a master of that grammar in my eyes. I might be a master of filling in the blank in Bunpro, but for me practical application is where it’s at. There is no point if I cannot reproduce the sentence on my own.

Okay, so what are the actual benefits of resetting?

For me, it was revisiting grammar that had been buried deep within the “mastered” section of the algorithm, electing to not show up for another year or so. On top of the fact that Bunpro has changed a lot since I first started. The grammar has been re-ordered in a way that is better categorized IMO, many explanations have been added, and the system is now more specific about what it want us to answer, (way less guessing). So overall, it’s a much more enjoyable experience the second time around. If you’re on the fence about it, you can at least take solace in the fact that it won’t take as much time this time around, and in many ways it’s a good thing to truly understand where you’re at.

Not really utilizing grammar much outside of Bunpro

This is 100% a failure on my part. My goal on most days was to just do Bunpro, Anki Vocab and immerse. While I will say that my grammar has improved by leaps and bounds since I started using Bunpro, it’s not really where I would like it to be. Part of this is not embracing what works for me personally, learning how to say something, and being able to recall it without any help or clues. Early on when I was starting to get serious about Japanese, I went through all of Pimsleur (there were only 3 Units total at the time) and I felt as if though my Japanese had skyrocketted. I was talking, having basic conversations, and deceiving (uknowingly) people into beleiving that I knew more than I really did. I thought, it can only go up from here, but I also got caught in a loop of books, apps, and bad advice when it came to Japanese. That really slowed me down I feel. Apart from the fact that Pimsleur only goes up to 5 units which will in the end go over only a very small fraction of Japanese. Apart from being more proactive with the grammar I’m reviewing, I’m also taking 2 sentences from each grammar point and adding them to an Anki deck, so that I can recall the sentence from the English translation first. This forces me to reproduce the sentence instead of just reading it. As a result, over the past couple weeks I do find myself thinking in Japanese more. I’m also finding myself translating the English I hear into Japanese without actually thinking about it. While some may be against this method, I’ve seen in several interviews that this is what happens to polyglots when they are deep within learning a language, they will be auto-translating in their heads from their native language to their target language. For the record, I don’t do this vice-versa. When I watch native content, I very rarely translate or think about English. Only when I don’t understand something or need to explain something to my partner.

But, would you actually recommend reseting?

Thats a good question and the truth is that such a thing will vary by person. If your goal is to only “finish” Bunpro, then probably not. If you feel confident that you can utilize all the grammar that you have studied previously, then probably not. But if you feel you keep getting answers wrong, or feel you have forgotten a lot of the grammar, it may be a good option.

And I’ll be frank, I know that there will be those that will say that resetting is a waste of time. That there is no point going over grammar that you have already learned, and that it will hurt progress and what not. And trust me, I know where you’re coming from. In years of hosting local study sessions, I was sometimes baffled by how often people went back to learn basics and re-treaded old material. This was typically after a long hiatus though. Still, there is something that I wonder about that logic. If I watched an episode of an anime or a drama that I liked, and I just happened to understand most or all that episode, in most immersion circles that would be considered a verifiable win, a test of what I’ve learned and not a waste of time even if I didn’t learn anything new. But if I go over material I’ve learned before, some of them will very likely consider that a waste of time, even though I’m reviewing and re-enforcing like I do when I’m inputting. For me going through an N-Level in Bunpro is like replaying an old game like Symphony of the Night. I remember the general flow of the game, the castle walls, the enemy movement. It all seems familiar to me, but I’m also learn something new each time. I get better at it each time and an able to get through bosses easier and find items quicker. I might even try something I haven’t tried before. At times I might still get my ass handed to me by a boss whose pattern I couldn’t remember, but it goes to show that I didn’t really master it in the first place and need to go back to that save point and plan a new strategy.

Reseting has allowed me to go back, take a closer look at the structure, and vocabulary of sentences, and further solidify the grammar I previously learned but was far from mastering. It’s also made my overall daily studies more enjoyable as I don’t have so many reveiws stacked on top of each other. A couple months after having reset, I can say thats it’s a decision that I don’t regret. It’s made balancing Wanikani, Anki, reading, watching content and speaking much more manageable. It’s like a second run in a game like a mentioned before.

Should Bunpro have a new game plus? Even harder sentences and more complicated structures where you have to recognize 2 grammar points? Re-enforcing all that grammar you learned in a new way? Just a thought.

17 Likes

I’ve been living in Japan for like half a year now, completed all grammar points up to about half of N2. Living here has made me realize my grasp of much of N4 is still lacking, and in some cases, sorely lacking. So I totally get where you’re coming from

11 Likes

Yeap! Being a BunPro, or any other SRS master, and actually being able to replicate and recognize the learned material without using any tools are completely separate skills. Like you, I don’t consider myself a “master” of anything until I acquire said skill. Until the day Japanese feels as effortless as my native language, I won’t consider myself to be there.

As far as resetting, I might actually do that at some point. Currently I’m studying towards the N1 test this December, so it probably won’t happen until sometime after that. I’m thinking about doing that with WaniKani as well, especially since it’s been a while since I’ve looked at it. I’m already at around 200, or more, daily reviews on here, which is the perfect amount for me right now. Rather than spend more time doing SRS, I need more time listening and reading, so that’s the plan for now.

In any case, thanks for sharing that. There’s nothing wrong with resetting, especially because you’re thinking about what’s the most beneficial for you, which is more important than what level you are here. One’s level is not a true metric of their Japanese ability anyway.

6 Likes

How do you reset just a specific level?

1 Like

It’s real eye opening when you have to apply it in real life. I’ve heard of people passing the JLPT, but not being able to communicate. That’s kind of crazy to me.

2 Likes

In settings you can go down to “reset”. You can choose a level from the drop down list. Comes with a lot of warnings, like you’re about to commit a crime against the Japanese learning gods.

4 Likes

I have the advantage of living in japan from the start of my japanese journey, so I am lucky in that regard. Even with that, my reading and listening ability is far beyond my ability to produce anything meaningful. I say my actual understanding of grammar is a solid n4 level, where n3 is a mysterious void of being unable to use it, despite studing it quite intensely as of now.
Personally I did reset N5 a few times prior to moving onto n4, and while I stll sometimes get my を は and が mixed up like everyone else, it definitely benefitted me knowing which grammar I actually know and which grammar I kinda know.

3 Likes

Well said. Good post and I wish you luck. I think lots of people overestimate their abilities and aren’t as honest with themselves about their weaknesses as you are. Outputting (and actually living in Japan, as @Rukifellth mentions) are massive ego checks and really help you focus on what you don’t know.

Regarding resetting, I think as one gets better at the language the goalposts naturally move and whereas perhaps an N5 or N4 level learner feels ecstatic at slowly decoding a sentence (and rightly so, it is hard) an intermediate learner expects themselves to have a deeper and more natural grasp of things. To that end, I am perennially suggesting a more layered learning system for grammar that revisits the “basics” periodically. Imagine if when you start N3 or N2 Bunpro had an option to re-visit a select list of N5-N3 topics in more depth and which focus more on the core ideas and ways of thinking in Japanese grammar. I think a system like that would help alleviate some of the concerns you have been having (and I once had).

Anyway, enough waffle. Good post - I think in a couple of years time you’ll thank yourself. Good luck!

4 Likes

very interesting topic, sorry for joining in late
I was precisely wondering if anyone had this same questioning I have been currently having. I have started with bunpro recently at an intermediate level and set a lot of lessons as mastered very quickly.
I am trying to be very thorough and setting mastered only if there is absolutely no slight of a doubt when reading the lesson, but still I after a few weeks of use I realize starting from scratch might be preferable whatever your level is.

Even if a point is completely mastered, doesn’t mean you don’t want to have it considered as an option when doing a review on trickier ones, your brain should consider all the option it has and not a selection even if it is harder, that is exactly what real life application is supposed to be.
Knowing it is excluded from your possibilities kind of accentuates the idea that you train for succeeding at bunpro rather than studying at Japanese. I feel it is a dangerous trap, that would happen exactly similarly than if you could train for JLPT and succeed but objectively have reached a poor Japanese level.
This is extremely common, when I lived in Japan I encountered plenty of people struggling with that, commonly n2 levels that had poor conversation capabilities.

I am unsure at this point if I move on and possibly reset later on or I restart entirely right now, it does affect the mental aspect as you mentioned.
I also wonder if starting from scratch would just end up being tested on a progressive difficulty manner, which would mean my idea of resetting would have been pointless and just a waste of time.
If I set too many topics from diverse difficulty as “added to reviews” it seems I would just end up getting an impossible amount of reviews, so I imagine I’d have to be reasonable with it.
Someone who will use a natural progression from a beginner level wouldn’t have to consider this problem, I think this topic is super interesting for literally anyone starting at more advanced levels.

3 Likes

When I started Bunpro I also started as intermediate at N3 level. But I did find it beneficial to go through N5 and N4 regardless due to the quality of the material.

As mentioned, it wasn’t an easy decision to reset, but after a couple months I don’t regret it. N3 was very difficult for me at first. Even though I had studied Japanese for years up until that point, it took me a very long time to get through it. But I remember getting through N4 and N5 rather quickly due to my past experience with Japanese. I am now adding new grammar points at a similar pace that I was back when I was going through N4.

If anything, it shows progress in a more natural way. I might have not mastered this, but it doesn’t mean that I don’t know it or have had some exposure to it. I’m currently breezing through N3 while filling in gaps and picking up valuable vocab I missed along the way, and at the same time not drowning myself in reviews. I’m being cautious about Wanikani as well since it hands out reviews like Oprah hands out cars.

Definitely consider it if you feel you are struggling with getting items wrong or having too many reviews. It’s made my daily study more enjoyable, and it’s hard to do this if you’re not enjoying it.

5 Likes

that’s a tricky one since I like the difficulty a lot as it demands a real effort which usually pays off despite taking more time… If I spent an extra time on one sentence and fail I think I am especially attentive of the mistake I have made… that works very well for me .
As far as I am concerned it is not frustrating or a struggle (yet!), but I am at adding new lessons at a very slow pace which is the only reason I don’t get overwhelmed. I feel it could get much harder very quick (too hard) if added more lessons.

Also I am very careful about the amount of reviews since I can’t allow more than 30min/45min of bunpro a day. (I use bunpro mostly for the reviews but do most of my learning aside). Now the fact I don’t add up many lessons to my reviews is probably why I feel the range of questions in my reviews is limited, I guess that’s a good reason to go little easier indeed.

I also totally agree to your point of never truly being a master anything, I don’t mind going back again through easier stuff (I do nativshark aside which forced me to completely start over at first), it is just a matter of finding the right difficulty balance and appropriate review range to me.

Maybe it is actually a good habit to regularly lower our scores along the way, keeps you humble in front of the massive task we’re aiming for.
In the large picture of our quest, resetting the little bars is totally irrelevant right? :slight_smile:
seeing them grow up is good motivation but they don’t represent much of what our abilities truly are.

I may try an half-way reset move to just get a feel of it, then if I like it go further like you did. I totally see where you’re at. Seems the couple extra months you spent were not lost time at all to you so I may want to relax about this fear of losing time as well.

1 Like

I find it to be an admirable thing that you relish in the challenge of giving time to something difficult. I tend to give extra time to the vocab and nuances of the sentences in Bunpro as well. I think too many people are focused on filling in the blank and increasing their level, giving them a constant hit of dopamine.

Going through Wanikani (which tends to be a point of contention and debate on these forums) from the beginning and even though I know most of the Kanji and Vocab so far, (Level 5) there are still new things I’ve learned though the example sentences. In the same way I sometimes learn new things from students I help tutor because of the sea of vocab Japanese is.

Anyway, I’m glad you got something out of my articl…post, and I hope you do what works best for you.

2 Likes

yes the dopamine trap is a real thing!
I like how bunpro doesn’t push the gamification aspect too far, I think they found a good balance. the level progression bars can be a bit misleading but are very tangible measuring tool if you are honest with yourself and don’t take them too seriously.

EDIT: just reseted n4, I have kept harder n3/n2 mixed in so I get more variety in difficulty and a broader range. I’m obviously adding quite a lot of reviews with this reset but I think it will be good experiment, if that it ends up being too much quantity I can just force my levels back up where it was before artificially.

1 Like

so a little feedback, 2 thoughts after the reset and a review round:

  • going through N4 easier stuff is indeed very interesting.
    I am surprised how easy it felt yet the mental gymnastics of finding the exact turn to the grammar is often still there. I’d love to get these easy cards mixed up with my other difficult reviews which leads me to the second thought.

  • getting a wider ranger of difficulty to my reviews turns out impossible unfortunately.
    I am hitting the limitation of a SRS-type system here which doesn’t consider any randomization but only progression.
    To get a satisfying randomization I would have to turn my whole N levels fully as beginner, which would be an absolutely impossible amount of reviews to handle.

as a reference aside of my additional complete N5, half complete N3 and few N2 units that I did not reset, I went from :

  • an almost completely mastered N4 > 80 reviews/day
  • to now urning on half of N4 as beginner level (the other half not active) > 220reviews/day already. They are done way faster but that is still too much.

This is not counting all the failed reviews that add up everyday so this won’t be manageable to me considering my schedule. I am already levelling up some of the cards back, to reach a manageable amount as I don’t want to turn off the difficult cards.

I am glad I did it though as I can get a precise feel of how many beginner cards I can allow myself to have and appreciate these new reviews I had skipped entirely. From this test I feel going through N5 again however wouldn’t be of much benefit though to someone at N3 level.

2 Likes

That’s an interesting approach. I’ve actually been slowly re-adding N3 since around mid January, and have only added back about 80 grammar points so far. I hardly get any N4 or N5 in my reviews anymore, so I’m actually only getting about 5-15 reviews a day which I’m fine with right now. I was starting to burn out on it and it showed with all the reviews I was getting wrong. At times my correct answers were as low as 35-40%. It wasn’t doing any good for my morale to see that constantly.

I however do take notes, make flashcards for unknown vocab, and look up other resources while doing Bunpro reviews, so it’s not just a fill in the blank session.

I may go back to refresh on some N4 stuff eventually, but I want to get to where I was before (close to finishing N2)

2 Likes

sounds like you did perfectly well, motivation is the absolute first parameter to be careful with. bunpro is very tough when you are constantly on the edge of your knowledge which is why I wished I could somehow randomise a bit.

2 Likes

But… why would a second round of SRS help there, when it didn’t work the first time around? You improve those other things by doing them (i.e. using grammar often let’s you use it without thinking too much about it, and recognizing grammar often in the wild let’s you recognize it more easily).

It can get very overwhelming very quick if you add too much. Out of all the Japanese study I do, Bunpro is the most mentally taxing.

1 Like