This should not be considered an error

Bunpro
#1

Hi all. Here is the conjugation task which I wanna to discuss:

Convert 借ります to plain standard form.

I have typed かる and of course failed the task. Because I didn’t expect this one will be an ichidan. But I did a right conjugation for a godan one. Shouldn’t we change the error in such situations to the warning indicating that the word is ichidan and not godan and vice versa? Because I here on Bunpro wanna focus on a grammar points and not on memorizing what verbs ending with える/いる are actually the ichidan verbs and not godan exceptions

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#2

Agree that it should have a warning. If you want to suggest a change for a specific question you can click on the bug icon and they will usually review it and change it fairly quickly.

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#3

This is a bit of a tricky one. I understand that it feels unfair to be quizzed on a specific verb if you haven’t learned it yet.
But 借りる is in N5 vocab deck. Eventually you’ll have to learn that 借りる exists and 借る doesn’t (in modern standard Japanese). Is it really that much harm to get that in reviews a little bit early?

There are a lot of points that involve conjugation, and therefore require knowing which verbs exist and how they conjugate. If you take this logic to extreme, wouldn’t that require all of them to have similar hints? That sounds excessive.

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#4

Learning which verbs are ichidan and which are godan is an integral part of being able to conjugate verbs, which is what you’re being tested on. It is an error, so I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be counted as one.

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#5

Agreed. It’s only one wrong answer, and there’s an undo feature. Since that word is one of the exceptional ichidan verbs that looks like it’s a godan る verb in its ーます form, this situation is actually a good way to remember the exception. 借りる can now be that bane of OP’s existence and fill them with memorable rage and PTSD.

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#6

This is a type of thing I’ve gone through a lot with Bunpro that just took some getting used to on my part.

Sometimes, Bunpro is strict in ways that are sort of nonsensical or it doesn’t make sense why a certain response doesn’t have a warning. If I can get to the bottom of if something is almost definitely a 1-to-1 equivalent and I get marked wrong, I just undo and put in the correct answer.

However! Bunpro is most often strict in ways that are real and important. For example, I was confused recently about why など didn’t get a warning on a certain review that wanted や。They seemed very similar to me, and that a warning would be reasonable. That’s not the case, though, and if Bunpro had given me an out with a warning I probably never would have taken the time to really understand the difference between the two.

In your case here, I think bunpro is right to not give the warning and it communicates very clearly that there’s something extra you need to work on.

Another grammar point that asks you to memorize a lot of vocab is: 真(っ) (JLPT N4) | Bunpro and Bunpro is not super lenient about spelling the words wrong for the reviews

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#7

Unfortunately, you just have to learn which are which. It’s part of learning Japanese. Yes, you technically did a correct technical conjugation, but 借りる is 借りる, not かる, and if you were to conjugated it as the latter in speech or writing, you would be wrong and it would not be understood. Conjugations in Japanese are much easier than in most languages, so think of it this way: memorizing which is which is a small price to pay for easy conjugations.

#8

Thanx for the replies guys. I get that knowing verb types is part of conjugation. I also said that I use Bunpro only for grammar. I study kanji and vocab on Wanikani. Probably I havent reached 借りる yet. And just seeing this verb pop up in Bunpro a few times without actually trying to learn it doesnt mean I will know the word.

Also, if you suggest me to learn vocab in Bunpro, then what - should I learn every single word I dont know? That would stop me from focusing on grammar and I would waste a lot of time trying to memorize words instead of actually studying the grammar points. And its not even possible because the quizzes give a dynamic set of sentences, so I physically cant learn all the words that show up. Plus, trying to learn words from quizzes or grammar explanations is a bad idea - there are no memory aids like mnemonics, so I would need to look them up in a dictionary or go to another resource anyway.

As for godan vs ichidan verbs, yeah, I could treat all iru/eru ending verbs as ichidan by default, and sometimes I will run into godan exceptions. But again, I dont want to learn vocab here. I already do it with another resource. I dont want to split vocab study between different places, even if the word is JLPT5.

PS. The undo feature is a good solution, thanx @Gacee

PPS. Bunpro often throws in grammar the vocabulary one level higher than the current JLPT level (I’ve seen people complain about this too).

#9

If you didn’t know the verb when it came up, maybe you could use a dictionary next time ? That’s what I do when unknown vocab appears in exemple sentences, it makes reviewing longer but it’s also a good way to learn new words

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#10

This is ridiculus. I study grammar of JLPT5 and see such sentence in a quiz:
旭が丘は静かな街です

Is it looks like the vocabulary and kanji I should study on a JLPT5 level??

Word by word:
旭 (あさひ / kyoku / Asahi, rising sun) → JLPT N1–N2 level kanji (rare outside of names, not taught in lower levels). Mostly appears in names of people and places.
丘 (おか / hill) → N1–N2 kanji (also not very common outside names).
が → particle → N5.
静かな (しずかな / quiet) → adjective → N5 vocabulary, but 静 kanji is usually considered N4.
街 (まち / town, city) → word is common, but kanji 街 is usually N3.
です → polite copula → N5.

Why bunpro not giving something more JLPT5 like 田中さんはしずかな人です?

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#11

Where did you find this particular sentence? I had a quick look in any of the possible grammar points it could have been from (な-Adjectives, が or は) but it wasn’t there. I also checked our entries for any of those vocab items and it wasn’t there either. There is the possibility that I am completely blind though…

旭が丘 is actually the name of a place. Many places have が丘 or が原 or が浜 or a range of other things in their names. I wouldn’t worry too much about the kanji in these words, and just think about them as place names. Some of the most common surnames in Japan actually contain quite rare kanji.

We try to mix up things while keeping it relatively ‘on level’, so that users don’t just see the same sentence structure and set of a couple hundred vocabulary used over and over again in every grammar point.

I completely understand the frustration, but I would recommend adding the vocab words to your reviews that you do feel are quite common or interesting. The more you read the faster things will start to feel easier and easier.

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#12

Godan/ichidan is not vocab, it’s grammar.

I could treat all iru/eru ending verbs as ichidan by default, and sometimes I will run into godan exceptions.

Yes, this is the way to do it when you’re learning how to use this grammar.

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#13

That was from NA adjectives grammar.

Yes, I understand that this is a city name. I just showed an example of a sentence that, in my opinion, would be a better match for JLPT5-level kanji/vocab: 田中さんはしずかな人です。 But that sentence is also completely fine, since I separate grammar study on Bunpro from vocabulary (and kanji) study on other resources. So it’s not a problem for me at all to have such sentences in reviews.

People suggested I study unknown words in Bunpro example sentences, but I don’t see why that would be efficient in the early stages of learning Japanese. Of course, when you’re at JLPT3–2 it’s fine, since there won’t be so many unknown words and looking up one or two words in a dictionary per 15+ sentences won’t interfere with studying grammar. But when you just started, you run into too many unknown words, and your grammar study ends up becoming kanji/vocab study. That’s the point.

Btw, I like Bunpro, and as people suggested, I can just use the undo button if I make mistakes with 一段 vs 五段 verbs.

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#14

I don’t think this will work out, if you follow the bunpro grammar and vocab path. The N3 grammar contains a lot of the N3 words to reinforce them, if you learn them side by side, there will always be tons of unknown vocab in the sentences. In the beginning of N3 there were way more unknown words in my grammar sentences than at the end of N4. I guess it will be the same for N2 and N1. (Not that I’m complaining, I see that as a bonus).

(and I also think having random city names in there helps learning to parse sentences for names and places ^^, but maybe that’s more appreciated after N5 ^^)

3 Likes
#15

Ah! I found the one you were talking about, it was in the な-Adjective describing a noun grammar point. My apologies on getting that one wrong :bowing_man:.

In any case, I definitely see where you are coming from. Before I started working at Bunpro I was a user as well, and I believe I actually complained myself at one point about the vocabulary in some sentences. It is probably in the forum history somewhere :sweat_smile:. At the end of the day though, I do still recommend pushing through it even if you do encounter quite a few new words. Everything will start to feel much easier in no time at all!

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